All Blacks vs Springboks II
-
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Grooter Yup, Williams has been underwhelming since returning from injury. Looks out of shape and seems to be struggling to breathe when the camera is on him.
You just need to look at Williams to know that cardio wouldn’t come as naturally to him as others.
Sititi seems to really have that second year syndrome which he can hopefully overcome.
His workrate has always been poor
-
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
BB kicked when he shouldn’t have
Not sure what to say there.
-
Finally logged back in.
Was at the game on Saturday and that was the most insipid All Blacks performance since 3 weeks ago against Argentina.
2nd half was a disaster and Brodie McAllister was completely out of his depth at this level.
Winning starts in the front office and we aren't winning in this scenario. The sooner Mark Robinson goes the better.
Man I wished Razor chose Tony Brown instead of Jason Holland. I could have told you Holland was going to be a complete dud from his time as the Hurricanes head coach.
-
@MacDazzler said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Finally logged back in.
Was at the game on Saturday and that was the most insipid All Blacks performance since 3 weeks ago against Argentina.
2nd half was a disaster and Brodie McAllister was completely out of his depth at this level.
Winning starts in the front office and we aren't winning in this scenario. The sooner Mark Robinson goes the better.
Man I wished Razor chose Tony Brown instead of Jason Holland. I could have told you Holland was going to be a complete dud from his time as the Hurricanes head coach.
The NZR dropped the ball with their recruitment process didn't they? Procrastinated and meanwhile they lost candidates includng Brown. Comparing the current coaching panel to our previous trios from the last 10 years, this one looks increasingly lightweight
-
@Smuts said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
I didn't watch yesterday, so knowing the score and reading the thread I actually expected much worse.
I thought at half time both coaches would have been very happy. We were by far the better team, imposed ourselves and were in front. They had been outplayed but were close.
Absolute horror show last quarter for us. Absolutely sublime for South Africa. Well done to them I'm very fucking impressed.
The ABs were the better team for first 60.
Let’s stop this idea right here. You were in the game but you were hardly on top.
Your scrum was … under pressure, your lineout was creaking, you were losing the tactical kicking game and the aerial battle and you’d managed a solitary try (requiring 2 or 3 pieces of exceptional skill) at the cost of your playmakers taking a battering and gifting us a try. Reptitive creamings caused Least Useless Barrett to set up deeper and deeper. By the end of the half, it was hard to see where the forces of darkness might generate net points.
The good guys on the other hand could look at that half and say they just needed to keep dancing with them that brung em.
They’d bombed three clear chances without doing anything all that miraculous, one of which got called back after it was converted and another was only stopped by a sensational last gasp tackle over the try line. All while rejigging their backline to deal with injuries.
They also knew that sooner or later their work in the scrum was going to pay dividends, on the scoreboard and by opening holes around the park.
So 10-7 was a fairish reflection though not a good indicator of how the work done in the first half was likely to play out in the second.
Had a re-watch last night and I think this is a very fair assessment.
Boks dominated territory and possession in the first half. They made lots of errors, but we struggled to get out of our own half and the scrum was under major pressure from about 20 minutes onwards.
We really only got in a postion to score three times in the first half. First time - Carter did. Seond time, Billy needed to sell a dummy and give us a three on one to score - instead he threw an intercept (probably a 14 pointer). And the third time our attacking lineout shat the bed and gave away an easy exit.
Second half, nothing much went right and I suspect we paid the price for doing more defending in the first half and running out of legs - but also reverting to a bunch of low percentage plays in the last 10 minutes trying to grab a bit of respectability back. In the circumstances, bringing on Kirifi for Sititi and leaving Parker out there was "sub-optimal". Reality overtook the plan.
But after a second watch, it's the set piece at the root of the problems. Aided and abetted by some headless chickenry. We piggy-backed the boks at times, but the set piece malfunctions were often the first phase of the piggy back.
Aerial battle was lost on the back of the Boks having most of the momentum. They weren't exactly climbing in the air and catching everything - but, if you're on the front foot and going forwards, a ball that goes loose is more often than not going to bounce favourably for you.
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Smuts said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
I didn't watch yesterday, so knowing the score and reading the thread I actually expected much worse.
I thought at half time both coaches would have been very happy. We were by far the better team, imposed ourselves and were in front. They had been outplayed but were close.
Absolute horror show last quarter for us. Absolutely sublime for South Africa. Well done to them I'm very fucking impressed.
The ABs were the better team for first 60.
Let’s stop this idea right here. You were in the game but you were hardly on top.
Your scrum was … under pressure, your lineout was creaking, you were losing the tactical kicking game and the aerial battle and you’d managed a solitary try (requiring 2 or 3 pieces of exceptional skill) at the cost of your playmakers taking a battering and gifting us a try. Reptitive creamings caused Least Useless Barrett to set up deeper and deeper. By the end of the half, it was hard to see where the forces of darkness might generate net points.
The good guys on the other hand could look at that half and say they just needed to keep dancing with them that brung em.
They’d bombed three clear chances without doing anything all that miraculous, one of which got called back after it was converted and another was only stopped by a sensational last gasp tackle over the try line. All while rejigging their backline to deal with injuries.
They also knew that sooner or later their work in the scrum was going to pay dividends, on the scoreboard and by opening holes around the park.
So 10-7 was a fairish reflection though not a good indicator of how the work done in the first half was likely to play out in the second.
Had a re-watch last night and I think this is a very fair assessment.
Boks dominated territory and possession in the first half. They made lots of errors, but we struggled to get out of our own half and the scrum was under major pressure from about 20 minutes onwards.
We really only got in a postion to score three times in the first half. First time - Carter did. Seond time, Billy needed to sell a dummy and give us a three on one to score - instead he threw an intercept (probably a 14 pointer). And the third time our attacking lineout shat the bed and gave away an easy exit.
Second half, nothing much went right and I suspect we paid the price for doing more defending in the first half and running out of legs - but also reverting to a bunch of low percentage plays in the last 10 minutes trying to grab a bit of respectability back. In the circumstances, bringing on Kirifi for Sititi and leaving Parker out there was "sub-optimal". Reality overtook the plan.
But after a second watch, it's the set piece at the root of the problems. Aided and abetted by some headless chickenry. We piggy-backed the boks at times, but the set piece malfunctions were often the first phase of the piggy back.
Aerial battle was lost on the back of the Boks having most of the momentum. They weren't exactly climbing in the air and catching everything - but, if you're on the front foot and going forwards, a ball that goes loose is more often than not going to bounce favourably for you.
Schalk Burger had it right post-game. The Boks aerial game dominated the ABs. Every time the ball went up, you pretty much knew it would end up in Green hands, either by catching it or from an AB knock on. That was the game.
ABs compounded their misery in the set piece. First half the scrum was malfunctioning and in the second half it was the lineout that was the main issue.
You can’t win a rugby match if you can’t catch the ball and you can’t secure your own first phase possession. Add onto that an insane game plan that kicks away what little possession you have, and you have the mother of all boil overs. All that was needed was a team capable of executing the basics like the Boks and you get a result like Saturday.
Guess what every team is going to do to the ABs from now until they find a solution to their aerial woes? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist and Robertson and co need to select and coach the team to deal with the aerial barrage that they will be put under.
-
With the talk about the AB centres and their failure to get involved in the attack, I was reminded of this excellent Ben Smith article (the rugby analyst-turned-Bok instigator from RugbyPass, not the former AB fullback) from 2021.
Getting the most out of Rieko Ioane as a strike weapon at centre
At 24 years-old, there is so much untapped potential left and if they get things right, he can dominate the international rugby stage again, this time as a centre.
The crux of the article consists of the point that Ioane’s main value in the 13-channel (his speed and acceleration) wasn’t properly used by the then coaching group of Foster, Plumtree and Mooar. Smith shows how just a few alterations – quicker service by the playmakers, straightening of the line, alternative positioning from set piece – could unlock Ioane’s attack, especially against more passive defences like the Wallabies.
The thing that stood out to me, especially, was this particular passage:
Ioane still needs to perfect his ability to this run, known as an unders line, as it is an important tool to have in his arsenal that can be applied from other set-piece play variations. If he is able to hit top speed at the right moment heading into half a gap, he will puncture the line, if not create a half-break. It will be harder at test level, but, first and foremost, clinical execution of the unders line is something Ioane doesn’t yet possess.
Peter Umaga-Jensen of the Hurricanes is currently the best centre in New Zealand at running this type of line.
Umaga-Jensen started this play lined up at fullback, timed his run perfectly and trusted the pass would be there from his midfield partner Ngani Laumape. He steamed onto the ball against the grain, underneath the gaze of Ioane, his opposite centre, and outside the weaker defender Harry Plummer, who was at second-five.
One of the main issues with the current midfield attack isn't so much that the 13 plays a decoy role to narrow the opposition defence, but the fact that this line is very rarely anything but this, a decoy. For a decoy to work, the defence actually needs to believe that there's a threat there. A 12 who can play flat to the line and a 13 who can run a proper unders line should already ask a lot of questions to any defence.
Added to this, both Barretts need to bring more variation to their passing game, in my opinion, as well as better body positioning (playing square to the line) in order to manipulate opposition defenders. There’s still way too much shovelling going on, which won’t ever draw a defender onto you at this level, leaving the passing target to get smashed behind the gain line.
It was already a frustrating read 4 years ago but the fact that most of these issues persist to this day with different players in the 13-jersey and a wholly different coaching group is genuinely jarring.
-
This post is deleted!
-
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Fist half thoughts:
Early on the ABs looked good if a little shaky under line speed pressure.
The first AB try was very nice. The intercept from Kolbe was a lack of eyes-up play by Proctor. Could have scored at the other end but the pace got to him.
Vaai is a dickhead. Not really a profound observation
maybe he should concentrate on pushing at scrums instead of clapping and laughing?Wiesse is the avatar of rip and tear.
Boks scrum going great guns with 30 gone.
B Barrett looking ponderous and slow. He doesn't like heavy traffic. Failed to exit right before half-time which was a basic bitch error.
New Bok winger is bloody useful.
AB defensive line noticeably crooked. Pushing hard in the first 2 channels but lagging a bit wider.
AB Lineout at 35:50 - wtf happened??
Everyone playing as frantically as a virgin couple on their wedding night. With about as satisfying a result.
Lot of injuries and HIA.
Impression: Boks are ascendant but not finishing their opportunities. ABs are attacking from depth - too deep IMHO - but lacking a bit of subtlety; not much in the way of deception.
Bed time. Second half tomorrow.
Great overall insights as ever Nick.
The bolded bit is not so much because I feel you're wrong - too much - but more because on replay you have to admire how Cheslin pressured him to pass, with the intention of then trying for the intercept.Yeah nah as you boys say
Proctor could have delayed or not pass
He fucked up
Wear it
Mike, Mr Webb is one of our South African contingent. Think he was celebrating his team's good play. Not sure he needs to wear it.
-
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Fist half thoughts:
Early on the ABs looked good if a little shaky under line speed pressure.
The first AB try was very nice. The intercept from Kolbe was a lack of eyes-up play by Proctor. Could have scored at the other end but the pace got to him.
Vaai is a dickhead. Not really a profound observation
maybe he should concentrate on pushing at scrums instead of clapping and laughing?Wiesse is the avatar of rip and tear.
Boks scrum going great guns with 30 gone.
B Barrett looking ponderous and slow. He doesn't like heavy traffic. Failed to exit right before half-time which was a basic bitch error.
New Bok winger is bloody useful.
AB defensive line noticeably crooked. Pushing hard in the first 2 channels but lagging a bit wider.
AB Lineout at 35:50 - wtf happened??
Everyone playing as frantically as a virgin couple on their wedding night. With about as satisfying a result.
Lot of injuries and HIA.
Impression: Boks are ascendant but not finishing their opportunities. ABs are attacking from depth - too deep IMHO - but lacking a bit of subtlety; not much in the way of deception.
Bed time. Second half tomorrow.
Great overall insights as ever Nick.
The bolded bit is not so much because I feel you're wrong - too much - but more because on replay you have to admire how Cheslin pressured him to pass, with the intention of then trying for the intercept.Yeah nah as you boys say
Proctor could have delayed or not pass
He fucked up
Wear it
Mike, Mr Webb is one of our South African contingent. Think he was celebrating his team's good play. Not sure he needs to wear it.
My bad
Didn’t digest it all in real time
-
Only three scrums in last 20. At 64:30 ABs get scrum penalty, at 67 ABs have nudge but Boks clear, and at 76:30 ABs get nudge, but Louw stands up taking Williams with him. So scrum wasn't the problem.
As for lineouts in that period, there were 7:
At 60 Vaa'i calls the fandango and ABs confuse themselves allowing Nortje to take ball hardly jumping;
62: FH wins easily
64 Throw goes over back. FH misses lift on Scooter.
65:30 Throw too low to FH and PSDT gets hand in front
71 FH wins at front with throw meant for Boks middle pod
72 PSDT wins
77 Long throw to RD, who wins it but slap back with no control.
So apart from the self destruction at 60 the lineouts were actually even.Expanding to include third quarter:-
Four scrums:
42 Boks LH collapses (BOTH knees on ground), Gardner should have called a penalty against green. After his sin is ignored Wessels managed to regain his feet ABs scrum retreats creating ILLUSION that new Boks props are dominant;
50 (Newell and Williams now on) ABs get weight on and win hit. Reinach declines to feed a retreating scrum and ref awards free kick for early push. At worst a technical issue.
52 Newell appears to pull on Wessel's bind. Wessels's elbow touches ground (on its own penalty to ABs) and scrum goes down on that side, for which ref penalises ABs. @NTA reckons Louw's elbow pointing down so probably guilty of same thing. Again own goal at worst.
56:30 (McAllister on) Ref goes round to look at Wessels. Ball in by ABs and cleanly hooked.
There were 5 lineouts:-
49 Clean take Vaa'i.
51 Vaa' steals one from Nortje off Boks throw.
5[7] Clean win by RGS off Bok throw
58 McAllister makes good throw to Scooter, but Wally in blocking position and rightly penalised. Own goal.
59 Nortje takes Boks throw cleanly.
Summarising second half:-
Lineouts (12)
ABs throw 7
3 takes, 2 clean 1 messy
One poor throw (McAllister)
One technical fail (Sititi)
One lift missed (Holland)
One absurd call (Vaa'i)Boks throw 5
3 clean takes
2 AB steals (Vaa'i, FH)A mixed bag and main AB issue over-complication between 58 and 60 for potentially 14 point swing.But didn't settle down until 70.
Scrums(7)
Boks got two pens (one which was wrong way around), and one free kick, which Parsons reckons Boks milked out of ref
ABs got one pen, but ought to have had two and maybe three.
Of 'unsanctioned' scrums, ABs cleared cleanly on their other put in and Boks cleared under pressure on their two others.
To the casual observer the Boks scrum at 42, which was in fact a penalty to ABs, has created the illusion of Boks dominance in second half. BTW I felt AB scrum always under pressure in first half, but have not rewatched.
IMO Wessels was under pressure throughout second half, and Louw edged Williams but not one way traffic.
Once Mc Allister came on the ABs had the edge.
The ABs didn't lose this one in the second half in the set piece.
-
I thought not having a functioning back line is a treasonous offence in NZ ?
Have you all gone woke ?
-
@autoeuropean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
I thought not having a functioning back line is a treasonous offence in NZ ?
Have you all gone woke ?
Woke? I can't tell. Hard to see past all the pitchforks.
-
@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Second half thoughts:
McKenzie good in the air a couple of times, but gets beaten later not getting into the space a couple of times as well. Wind factor?
Noticeable - like the Kolbe intercept - that the Boks are leaving a lot of space for the last defender to cover BUT they're rushing into the eyeline of the attacker e.g. Savea's forward pass at the start of the 2nd half due to the 12 rushing hard.
It looks like a lack of patience; like watching my club side get two offloads away and making some metres, so they keep trying it but fail to understand they're running out of guys to cover rucks.
Bok 2nd try was error after error from the ABs - first all the back rowers are pinned in a retreating and penalisable scrum, then rangaboi puts a high tackle on Reinach for two penalties in a row. Meanwhile the AB backline have shot out of the line and are busy ruck watching when Kolisi takes the pop. Jordan and Sititi utterly fail to cover this breakout, leaving Jordie Barrett to do the work and leave the right side exposed. After Kolisi is tackled, the numbers aren't bad, just looking inward instead of at the danger on the edge: Kolbe.
Not sure why the AB restarts are so deep. Every time Wiese gets a runup and the Boks get a fairly easy possession.
In the 45th minute BB fields a kick and gives it to McKenzie on the 22 but outside - instead of using Jordie and Carter outside him he kicks it straight away. A minute later they get the ball deep inside their 22 and BB to McKenzie who has to try and find touch from the middle of the field. Not sure if there is any clear plan here.
Vaa'i puts in a stupid shoulder charge and is still doing the dickhead laugh and tough guy act after someone reacts. Hardly the "stoic, grim-faced and noble" AB of mythology. I guess there are some Chiefs fans who love it tho
Sititi really looks half a yard off the pace. Tamaiti Williams looks 5 yards off the pace.
At 50 minutes the handling errors and penalties are pretty even but the turnovers conceded favours the ABs 7-10. As Darryl Kerrigan said: "It's what you do with it".
The space is still there on the edges for the ABs, but jeez the skill execution is letting them down - Jordan's wobbly spiral that misses Proctor (who looked too slow TBH) and lands at Carter's feet being a prime example. Jordan should have gone at or around Libbok like the Wallabies did.
ABs a bit unlucky to get penalised at the scrum just on 54:00 - Bok THP elbow pointing straight down.
OMG 55:00 Bok forward pass missed (AR straight in line) then Savea turns it over only for BB to faff around. There is no clear direction in his mind - unless there is some magical bullshit involved, and a rampant forward pack, Barrett has no idea. And a chip kick right after it. Lol sack him.
Wiese eats black jerseys for dinner. Sititi, by comparison, tries a rugby league strip at nearly every tackle.
ABs blow a chance at competitiveness with obstruction at a maul in the 59th minute. After that we're through the looking glass, Alice... I think from this point I was actually watching the game, so I'll go bullet points from here.
- Boks young guns start expressing themselves.
- Backup AB hooker is partly to blame, but fucking around at lineout moreso.
- Three ABs (Tupaea, Carter, Rangaboi) fail to bring down Willemse. Yeesh. They paused instead of smacking a guy on the back foot.
- CHIP KICK! OVERTHROW! OVERKICK!
- At 65:00 missed tackles: ABs 31-29 Boks
- Stupid offload by Jordan after taking the high ball gives the Boks a scrum with 13 to go just outside the AB 22.
- Hooker's break of BB's shit kick made to look better by a fairly shit AB chase line. Sets up field position for Kwagga's try
- Snyman's try is all down to Holland shooting out. I said that on the day I believe.
- 75:35 Hey Will Jordan: two hands for beginners! Tho at the scrum immediately afterwards the Boks should have been pinged as their THP absolutely shit the bed.
- CROSSFIELD KICK! CHIP KICK ARDIE!
- Tamaiti Williams out of alignment for the Boks last try, and instead of advancing, he retreats.
And a bloodied but victorious Esterhuizen is the icing on the cake.
That's the nuts and bolts. New post coming for summary thoughts.
Having had a careful rewatch of the second half @NTA was on the money on almost every count.
On the box kicks, in particular post AB kick offs from around 60 to 70ish, Boks regathered four in a row. Noticeable that e.g. Hooker rushed almost beyond where the kick was likely to land and owned the space. I suspect the wind was playing ball back towards them as it came down. A skill which can be learned.
Once QT came on around 60 the AB backline defensive alignment was all over the place. Jordie was like the scarlet pimpernel! Hard to adjust for unless you've played together with your 13 AND you are communicating well.
Miss on Willemse for his try (JB on line 5m from ruck) and Quagga try were very significantly down to this. And QT is fine test 12 but merely an average Super level 13!
Likewise, Parker going off coincided with AB ruck defence losing any structure. If anything, Holland seemed to be aligned as if at blindside, AND Williams sometimes outside him. HELLO! P.S. Add in RD seagulling and it was like shooting ducks in barrel for Boks.
I've said it before but Scooter looked gassed (Boks 1 was a HARD game), so bring Holland on for him and leave Parker at 6.
Can we please finish a test with a loose forward trio who've played more than 160 minutes with each other? Given personnel, an obvious finishing trio would be Jacobson, Parker and Wally, but RD can be substituted for latter.
The fancy Dan kicking was bad enough, but where was the communication? If we are kicking to regather someone needs to tell the chasers???!!!
Perhaps the overriding impression was that from about 60, ABs had negligible cohesion. This was exacerbated by our halfbacks eschewing any attempts to impose structure on our play.
The Boks weren't supermen, what they did was just to coolly and calmly cash in (repeatedly) as ABs fell apart as a team.
None of Scooter, RD or BB seemed to have any idea what to do. Hell, only 327 caps between them.
