All Blacks 2025
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@Victor-Meldrew But he was the head coach of Brazil!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
Maybe he's just not good enough at Test level?
Like Guy Novès. A serial winner with Toulouse but only a 33% win ratio with France.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
Maybe he's just not good enough at Test level? A bit like George Bridge - he was successful for the Crusaders too.
I agree with Henry and Hansen - NZR should have insisted he was tested at International level before being given the job. But we are where we are.
As Wayne Bennett said, 'Don't listen to the public otherwise you'll be sitting with them'.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
Maybe he's just not good enough at Test level? A bit like George Bridge - he was successful for the Crusaders too.
I agree with Henry and Hansen - NZR should have insisted he was tested at International level before being given the job. But we are where we are.
I am a long way from being a Robertson supporter, that should be pretty clear.
But it's not comparable to George Bridge, who was a good winger benefitting from playing in the best team. If anyone it's more Reuben Thorne - the guy leading the best team to the best results - but even then it's quite different in that player performances are highly visible to the public, whereas coaching is pretty much completely opaque other than final results.
By international experience, what do you mean? Coaching a national side, or coaching a club/provincial side in another country? If a national side, clearly you think Brazil doesn't count - where is the line? And do you mean as a head coach, or as an assistant coach? Robertson also played in both Japan and France, so he has some experience in other environments.
Any which way, I find it dogmatic. There are definitely aspects of test rugby in terms of prep time and tournament play vs prepping for a long season that are different, but these things are never black and white. Nobody has ever done something until they have.If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
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It’s a difficult one , I think there is a couple of things going on ,
He isn’t the innovative genius he was painted out to be , and to go with that , our talent pool isn’t necessarily superior to our opponents in the way it has been in the past .
If it was he might be doing better and everyone would be thinking it’s all ok . But it isn’t and his coaching comes under the microscope more and more if we aren’t dominating, like people were expecting when the messiah takes over .
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I'm just thinking he may not be good enough for Test level but accept the jury is still out/may be a bit too early to say. Hope so.
NZR took a big gamble appointing him based on fuck-all international coaching experience and did that knowing he was kryptonite to established coaches like Schmidt & Enoka. They must have known what the risks they were taking
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
But it isn’t and his coaching comes under the microscope more and more if we aren’t dominating, like people were expecting when the messiah takes over .
Next 2 weeks will tell if it's a "Big Hat, No Cattle" situation
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
But it isn’t and his coaching comes under the microscope more and more if we aren’t dominating, like people were expecting when the messiah takes over .
Next 2 weeks will tell if it's a "Big Hat, No Cattle" situation
Im expecting we will hold onto the bledisloe but not be overly convincing doing it , so much of the same .
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
And head coaching is different than assistant coaching. And test rugby is only really a step up from Super if it is tier 1.
So we want all our future AB coach candidates to have first been head coach of a tier 1 country? Good luck with that, because it simply isn't possible - and even if it were, it would mean all our best coaches coaching our biggest rivals.Of course shining in Super is not a guarantee of test success, but it is the best indicator we have. All you can do is combine it with your understanding of the ways in which test rugby is different e.g. Sevu Reece is a standout at Super, but his game is built around high workrate, small guy, not particularly quick, not a high ball specialist, a lot of non-traditional winger pick n goes etc - one can make the leap that his game may not transfer well.
There are also gigs like NZ under 20, which is international, tournament-based footy. Rennie was a standout there. Robertson had that job for a bit too didn't he?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
NZR took a big gamble appointing him based on fuck-all international coaching experience
I'm not sure that is the case, he had achieved everything under International, why is it a pre-requisite?
I mean other international teams were supposedly interested too, they knew he didnt have this other experience, granted in another environment he would not have been hamstrung with any supposed Crusader-bias, but I certainly dont think the Int experience is a must.
Its that age old cliche isnt it, sorry you dont have the relevant experience...how does one get this without the opportunity to do so?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
And head coaching is different than assistant coaching. And test rugby is only really a step up from Super if it is tier 1.
So we want all our future AB coach candidates to have first been head coach of a tier 1 country? Good luck with that, because it simply isn't possible - and even if it were, it would mean all our best coaches coaching our biggest rivals.You're misreading what I am writing.
International head coaching experience is inarguably a useful thing to have, particularly at Tier 1 level. It helps.
But you do want to understand how the coaching team is planning to understand and respond to the challenges at Test level as it is different to domestic. You can't coach the same way - so some modification is needed. To be explicit: international Tier 1 coaching experience is very helpful in the coaching team, but the absence is not a disqualifier. -
Rassie had no international level experience prior to taking on the Boks job. He did coach Munster at provincial level, so had experience coaching outside SA.
“ As a coach, he has worked with Free State Cheetahs, Western Province and had spells as an adviser to the South Africa national team. He is also the former Director of Rugby of Irish provincial side Munster, and previously served as General Manager of High Performance Teams for the South African Rugby Union.”
Should the Boks not have given him the job?
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I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
I think Joe Schmidt would have been a better option. Presumably he was available as a head coach of an international side given he has been the head coach of an international side since 2024.
Probably he could have made it work since half the games are in NZ.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
I think Joe Schmidt would have been a better option. Presumably he was available as a head coach of an international side given he has been the head coach of an international side since 2024.
Probably he could have made it work since half the games are in NZ.
My recollection is that Schmidt signalled limited interest in the top job at the time. He was appointed Wallabies head coach nine months after Robertson was given the All Blacks job.
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Its just hard to see Razor as a good coach because the ABs have tended to be worse in the second half of games, after his team talks and his substitutions. In fact I think the time immediately after half time is when the team seems to be at its most ineffective .
Also lost the rematch tests v Pumas and Boks quite heavily having won the first. Their coaches made adjustments in their tactics and selections and were able to win comprehensively. He was not able to back those wins up.
Also, the team does not seem like it's improving, it's hard to point to progress having been made since the end of the super season. Have any players significantly enhanced their reputations since the end of Super? Its hard to point to any one player who is thriving in the AB environment or playing above expectations. His selections are by and large conservative and he doesn't seem willing to take risks or try something new if he can avoid it.
Personally I think he could and should be getting more out of this group of players.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2025:
Solution is clearing clone good players instead of picking mediocre Cantabs and Chiefs.
How good that they are both wearing the classic style predators as well with the big tongue
