Poll: Best AB coach - professional era
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hang on and sorry to derail this coaching thread yet again but it suddenly occurred to me and I hope I am wrong: was there the [may-have-been-possible in an alternative universe] chance for the RWC2003 SF game against Australia of having Mills at 13 or Umaga (who I think afterwards said he was fit to play?) and Cullen at 15?
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@nostrildamus said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
hang and sorry to derail this coaching thread yet again but it suddenly occurred to me and I hope I am wrong: was there the [may-have-been-possible in an alternative universe] chance for the RWC2003 SF game against Australia of having Mills at 13 or Umaga (who I think afterwards said he was fit to play?) and Cullen at 15?
Hell didn't freeze over so no
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@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Hell didn't freeze over so no
is that an actual quote from the coaches or are you still bitter? And if the latter, how was it growing up with cueball as a father?
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@nostrildamus said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Hell didn't freeze over so no
is that an actual quote from the coaches or are you still bitter? And if the latter, how was it growing up with cueball as a father?
6th ranked ODI batsman and 9th ranked test batsman.
Fuck you Dad, I like Cricket better than Rugby.
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@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Fuck you Dad, I like Cricket better than Rugby.
Perfect opportunity for Cullen to send John Mitchell some pointed cards on Father's Day...
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I do recall at the time a lot of chatter about the team Mitchell finally selected for RWC 2003.
The general thought being sort of like; ok . . . but if you dont win, you are guna get crucified.He and Mark Shaw had a very bad relationship with the media (what ever you think of the media).
The media was just waiting for them to crash and burn . . . and they did . . . and then they got hammered.Good lesson there for future coaches, you dont have to slurp them like say John Hart, but dont be calling them DHs, because sooner or later things wont be going well and they'll deal to you.
In the end it was probably his very poor PR that did Mitchell in; and made it easy for NZR to ditch him.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
BB on the mount rushmore of world GOAT 10's
Fuuuuuuuuck off!
I dont even have him as a starting 10 . . . ever!The best 10 play i've ever seen from an AB was DC (especially in that series against the Lions).
I might have BB in the running for the world GOAT 22 tho.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
I'm assuming you're not old enough to have seen Bert Cooke - and he was tiny!
Steve Pokere could take a gap, but I don't recall him having jet shoes.
I'll have to say, Super Sid?
Yep, there should have been way more olden time players in that team of the century.
Especially from the likes of the 1920's. AB rugby was extremely strong in that era.
PTM was the only other olden time player to make it; which is super impressive really; because both those players were on the back ends of their careers when TV came along.Another player I've heard old timers rave about was Johnny Smith (40's-50's)
Pokere was a neat little player. Silky i think is the word the commentators use.
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@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
30 tries in 67 appearances. Played in a couple of World Cups. He went very well.
But I'll admit when you put it like that it's tough to pick him clearly over JR and DH.
Yeah
Add in his RL and i'd have no trouble taking him over JR and DH; nothing really in it tho.
Allways thought DH was one of those types of players that looked better than he actually was.But Rupes over them all.
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@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
30 tries in 67 appearances. Played in a couple of World Cups. He went very well.
But I'll admit when you put it like that it's tough to pick him clearly over JR and DH.
Yeah
Add in his RL and i'd have no trouble taking him over JR and DH; nothing really in it tho.
Allways thought DH was one of those types of players that looked better than he actually was.But Rupes over them all.
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
....and yes, peak Caucau would get in my mythical all time back three in the 14 jersey with Cully and Jonah.
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A bit of revisionism going on about Howlett. He scored some pretty amazing tries both individually and then on the back of his speed, chase and support play. If that’s not game breaking not sure what is.
He worked hard to get into positions for the offload or short pass off the shoulder. When midfielders or forwards looked to be tackled and Howlett pops up and breaks the play open for a try.
@MN5 Lote? Yeah nah. Not even a top 5 Wallaby winger.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
A bit of revisionism going on about Howlett. He scored some pretty amazing tries both individually and then on the back of his speed, chase and support play. If that’s not game breaking not sure what is.
He worked hard to get into positions for the offload or short pass off the shoulder. When midfielders or forwards looked to be tackled and Howlett pops up and breaks the play open for a try.
@MN5 Lote? Yeah nah. Not even a top 5 Wallaby winger.
fucking this. Doug Howlett did not fluke those tries he was brilliant at arriving when and where needed and had jet shoes. Not dark enough to escape "safe white guy" vibes i guess? Brilliant winger that shits over every 14 we've had since, including Ben Smith.
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@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Yes, apart from his speed (reportedly 10.68 s over 100m), skill, ball-handling, kicking, timing, anticipation, fitness, durability, dependability, AB try-scoring record, ability to play 15, teamwork and support play, what did Howlett have to offer?
He did get arrested for being (allegedly) drunk and disorderly in Kilkenny, of all places, so you at least have to give him that.
Games Tries Strike Rate
All Blacks 62 49 0.79
Super Rugby 104 59 0.57
NPC 55 49 0.89
Munster 112 35 0.31
Career 333 192 0.58 -
@nostrildamus And in the car park of Heathrow Hilton Hotel.
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@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
I'm assuming you're not old enough to have seen Bert Cooke - and he was tiny!
Steve Pokere could take a gap, but I don't recall him having jet shoes.
I'll have to say, Super Sid?
Yep, there should have been way more olden time players in that team of the century.
Especially from the likes of the 1920's. AB rugby was extremely strong in that era.
PTM was the only other olden time player to make it; which is super impressive really; because both those players were on the back ends of their careers when TV came along.Another player I've heard old timers rave about was Johnny Smith (40's-50's)
Pokere was a neat little player. Silky i think is the word the commentators use.
Yeah - I really dislike it when people pick their all time greatest team and there's no-one picked prior to 1990. That's not all time. That's the best since 1990.
I reckon you should pretty much be constrained to having to pick one player per decade - and two or three extra picks to get to 15.
Mark Nicholls was apparently a strategic genius in the Grant Fox league.
I just spent ten minutes thinking about who PTM was - Pinetree!
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@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
30 tries in 67 appearances. Played in a couple of World Cups. He went very well.
But I'll admit when you put it like that it's tough to pick him clearly over JR and DH.
Yeah
Add in his RL and i'd have no trouble taking him over JR and DH; nothing really in it tho.
Allways thought DH was one of those types of players that looked better than he actually was.But Rupes over them all.
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Terrible take of the week award winner. .
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@nostrildamus said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Yes, apart from his speed (reportedly 10.68 s over 100m), skill, ball-handling, kicking, timing, anticipation, fitness, durability, dependability, AB try-scoring record, ability to play 15, teamwork and support play, what did Howlett have to offer?
He did get arrested for being (allegedly) drunk and disorderly in Kilkenny, of all places, so you at least have to give him that.
Games Tries Strike Rate
All Blacks 62 49 0.79
Super Rugby 104 59 0.57
NPC 55 49 0.89
Munster 112 35 0.31
Career 333 192 0.58All excellent points but I guess I just ( probably unfairly ) think of all the freak tries others have scored more than him.
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@antipodean said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
30 tries in 67 appearances. Played in a couple of World Cups. He went very well.
But I'll admit when you put it like that it's tough to pick him clearly over JR and DH.
Yeah
Add in his RL and i'd have no trouble taking him over JR and DH; nothing really in it tho.
Allways thought DH was one of those types of players that looked better than he actually was.But Rupes over them all.
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Terrible take of the week award winner. .
I probably didn’t word it quite how I wanted to but any award is a good one on here
I’ll try it in simpler terms
Doug Howlett - Awesome
A few other AB outside backs - even Awesomer
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@KiwiMurph said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Read Gregor Paul's biography of Hansen earlier this year. He makes a pretty compelling case that Hansen is a more rounded coach than Sir Ted.
Interestingly, he makes a similar case for Keiran Read vs McCaw as captain.
Hansen was phenomenal in his first four years - I think he lost 3 and drew 1 - and built probably the best ever All Black team.
With all due respect to Gregor Paul - Hansen and Read both got to operate in a 'monkey off of the back' environment due to the work done by Henry and McCaw from 07 - 11.
In 2012 for the first time in 21 years the All Blacks didn't have to carry around the tag of 'world cup chokers' which obviously grew over that period. Hansen had his captain in place with still plenty left in the tank and options at 10 with Carter still around and Cruden having taken massive strides in 2011/12 having featured at a RWC and won a Super title with the Chiefs.
Hansen's tenure reminds me of an elongated version of Hart's tenure - very successful with an established team and integrating new talent into said team - followed by a struggle once the senior heads departed (McCaw, Carter, Nonu etc). Of course Hart's drop off was more pronounced but part of that is because the Boks and Wallabies were a joke in 2016-17 (Allister Coetzee was Bok coach and the Wallabies really struggled with an exodus of talent post 2015 RWC) and it really masked how good the ABs were travelling.
Read might have been more engaging as a person for players to deal with and was a solid captain but the proof is in the pudding and he can't hold a candle to McCaw as a leader (and realistically no one was going to be able to after McCaw).
Yeah - Paul says that Read had an impossible act to follow - but, there were things he did better than McCaw. He does come out hard saying that if McCaw was captain we would have won vs the Lions, not least because Garces wouldn't have had the balls to back down McCaw over the penalty - but, also that McCaw would've been better tactically when SBW was sent off - and would've pushed back more against some of Hansen's management. You have to read the book to understand this last point.
No doubt Sir Ted set some sturdy foundations (which Hansen helped with), but the book paints the AB camp from 2008-2011 as a pretty grim and driven place, without much fun. Which is OK if you're Henry and McCaw, but not so much for Dagg and Jane - or apparently Wayne Smith, who left for the Chiefs after 2011.
Anyway, not going to diss Sir Ted too much make a point - he did a fabulous job to win in 2011. It's not a fabulous book - but, it's interesting in the detail it gets into. Interestingly, Facebook threw into my feed today that Gilbert Enoka has a book out. I'll doubtless track a copy down because this stuff interests me - and I vaguely know Gilbert. Played a couple of seasons of low grade cricket with/against him and his brother was my PE teacher at school.
