Ashes 2025/6
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@barbarian said in Ashes 2025/6:
I can't really think of a sporting equivalent of England in the (away) Ashes. Every four years arriving with a mixture of confidence, hopefulness and at times arrogance and just getting the piss beaten out of them every time.
The Wallabies haven't won in NZ for a very long time but it doesn't provoke anguish like this. We know our place, we expect failure. It can be disappointing but it's never devastating.
But watching the Poms roll in here, tails up, only to see them go straight onto the canvas... and then the avalanche of opinions, think-pieces, fan vitriol... there's just nothing like it.
The 1st test in Perth is going to haunt them for a long time. A lead of 100 runs 9 wickets in hand only to throw it all away because they aren't winning if they dont score at 7 runs an over..
How broken did Stokes look as he walked off after getting out lastnightit will only get worse from now on too, Cummins will be back, Lyons too
Head is likely established as the opener.Also its night and day with the fielding and keeping between the sides.
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@Virgil said in Ashes 2025/6:
@barbarian said in Ashes 2025/6:
I can't really think of a sporting equivalent of England in the (away) Ashes. Every four years arriving with a mixture of confidence, hopefulness and at times arrogance and just getting the piss beaten out of them every time.
The Wallabies haven't won in NZ for a very long time but it doesn't provoke anguish like this. We know our place, we expect failure. It can be disappointing but it's never devastating.
But watching the Poms roll in here, tails up, only to see them go straight onto the canvas... and then the avalanche of opinions, think-pieces, fan vitriol... there's just nothing like it.
The 1st test in Perth is going to haunt them for a long time. A lead of 100 runs 9 wickets in hand only to throw it all away because they aren't winning if they dont score at 7 runs an over..
How broken did Stokes look as he walked off after getting out lastnightit will only get worse from now on too, Cummins will be back, Lyons too
Head is likely established as the opener.Also its night and day with the fielding and keeping between the sides.
It's gotta be embarrassing when a West Indian across the ditch who hadn't previously scored a test 50 knuckles down and shows them how to get shit done. The mentality of these guys to flay at everything is mind blowing. Yes, when it's "on" I'm a huge fan of guys scoring quickly but there is a time and place.
McCullum is a shit coach. I'm glad he's not coaching NZ.
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@NTA said in Ashes 2025/6:
That was a somewhat unusual performance by Steve.
Came out super-hyped and angry for what was a formality.
Dunno whether he'd hit some celebratory coke early in the dressing room or - dare I say it - been sandpapering his balls while waiting his turn?
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It was weird that Archer only reached the 150km/h mark once he was riled up by Smith and the game was gone. Might be an idea to bowl like that earlier on in the game.
The batting flaws are well documented but Glenn McGrath criticised the bowling and the field placings as lacking patience - each plan lasted a couple of overs and then they would try something else. McGrath was, of course, the master of the nagging line and length and occasionally being taken on to be hit off his length, but usually getting the last laugh.
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@KiwiPie dunno if you're getting Fox or Channel 7 commentary over there?
I'm watching Ch7 and loving it. Ponting has been his insightful self, and while he's often teasing out the subtle detail of the game situation into terms the average viewer can appreciate, sometimes he just gets his Ian Chappell on and states the obvious:
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@KiwiPie said in Ashes 2025/6:
It was weird that Archer only reached the 150km/h mark once he was riled up by Smith and the game was gone. Might be an idea to bowl like that earlier on in the game.
The batting flaws are well documented but Glenn McGrath criticised the bowling and the field placings as lacking patience - each plan lasted a couple of overs and then they would try something else. McGrath was, of course, the master of the nagging line and length and occasionally being taken on to be hit off his length, but usually getting the last laugh.
He was getting 150km to the openers but same thing though, too little too late.
And despite the speeds he didnt look threatening, not like he swings the ball (like Bond etc would do). There was no seam movement, and he didnt bowl that full.dont get the hype with him, i know hes had injury issues but his record is very very average.
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@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:
@barbarian said in Ashes 2025/6:
I can't really think of a sporting equivalent of England in the (away) Ashes. Every four years arriving with a mixture of confidence, hopefulness and at times arrogance and just getting the piss beaten out of them every time.
The Wallabies haven't won in NZ for a very long time but it doesn't provoke anguish like this. We know our place, we expect failure. It can be disappointing but it's never devastating.
But watching the Poms roll in here, tails up, only to see them go straight onto the canvas... and then the avalanche of opinions, think-pieces, fan vitriol... there's just nothing like it.
Well they came into the series ( which is still alive, just ) with the number one and two ranked test batsmen in the world. The Bazball mentality which has worked for them at times and based on that is something they refuse to change. Confident captain who can be a game changer, a few quicks with talent.......Australia have had a few injuries and untried newbies. Plus many of their stars are getting on in years.
The English press certainly do them no favours though.
....and my boy Beefy is right to mouth off about them. They should be doing far better.
Oh of course. We were all expecting a close series, as you say there was a strong case for England favouritism, backed up even more after the first half of the Perth test.
And that just makes it funnier. We're rolling out Shield trundlers and still knocking them off.
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@barbarian said in Ashes 2025/6:
@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:
@barbarian said in Ashes 2025/6:
I can't really think of a sporting equivalent of England in the (away) Ashes. Every four years arriving with a mixture of confidence, hopefulness and at times arrogance and just getting the piss beaten out of them every time.
The Wallabies haven't won in NZ for a very long time but it doesn't provoke anguish like this. We know our place, we expect failure. It can be disappointing but it's never devastating.
But watching the Poms roll in here, tails up, only to see them go straight onto the canvas... and then the avalanche of opinions, think-pieces, fan vitriol... there's just nothing like it.
Well they came into the series ( which is still alive, just ) with the number one and two ranked test batsmen in the world. The Bazball mentality which has worked for them at times and based on that is something they refuse to change. Confident captain who can be a game changer, a few quicks with talent.......Australia have had a few injuries and untried newbies. Plus many of their stars are getting on in years.
The English press certainly do them no favours though.
....and my boy Beefy is right to mouth off about them. They should be doing far better.
Oh of course. We were all expecting a close series, as you say there was a strong case for England favouritism, backed up even more after the first half of the Perth test.
And that just makes it funnier. We're rolling out Shield trundlers and still knocking them off.
The keen statsman in me notes that Jofra Archer batting at 11 has a first class average of 22 with six 50s in 48 matches. Based on that you'd think the guys above him would provide more fight than they did. But no, Bazballing is the way to go. It's infectious throughout the whole team.
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I think there's a laziness that's crept into all tail end batting in recent years. Gone are the days where you try and hang around and try and hold up your end. You're compelled to tee off, for some reason. Scott Boland's innings was the type you just don't see much any more - no wild swings, just compact defence, nibble a few to fine leg/third man, soak up the pressure.
England are the worst culprits. Even after losing Stokes and Jacks, there still should have been the hope or aspiration to do what Starc and Boland did - extend the game and lead into the night session. But nah that's not our style, prefer to middle a pull shot straight to mid wicket. Sweet strike though.
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@barbarian said in Ashes 2025/6:
I think there's a laziness that's crept into all tail end batting in recent years. Gone are the days where you try and hang around and try and hold up your end. You're compelled to tee off, for some reason. Scott Boland's innings was the type you just don't see much any more - no wild swings, just compact defence, nibble a few to fine leg/third man, soak up the pressure.
England are the worst culprits. Even after losing Stokes and Jacks, there still should have been the hope or aspiration to do what Starc and Boland did - extend the game and lead into the night session. But nah that's not our style, prefer to middle a pull shot straight to mid wicket. Sweet strike though.
You're dead right and that's why I had to absolutely admire Kemar Roaches innings vs us. Knuckling down and batting for ages when the top order has failed ( and way more often than not when a guy is tired from bowling for ages ) is surely one of the most heroic things someone can do on a cricket pitch, especially when there isn't much pedigree there.
England just decided to have a brain explosion instead. I can't believe Atkinson has got a test hundred when I see the ways he gets out frequently.
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@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:
I can't believe Atkinson has got a test hundred when I see the ways he gets out frequently.
Against Sri Lanka at Lords.
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@Smudge said in Ashes 2025/6:
@sparky said in Ashes 2025/6:
All over. Finished with a six.
Australia 2 England 0
Three to play.
Cheers for that. Hadn't been able to work out the series score at all!!
So you've not contributed to the thread since October, and your first move is to jump in with a sarcastic remark about "thanks for the score update!"
My recommendation:
@Smudge said in Ashes 2025/6:
Comment on the game and offer up your opinion.
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@Virgil said in Ashes 2025/6:
Also its night and day with the fielding and keeping between the sides.
Unfortunately, that's a primary reason while we'll get our arses handed to us next summer. The Aussies catch pretty much everything and frequently get the sort of runout that Inglis engineered on Stokes - we'll drop four or five catches per match and almost never hit the stumps. (Note to NZ Cricket - it may not yet be too late to fix this!)
Even if we can turn up with Henry, Jamieson, O'Rourke, Sears, Duffy and Santner all fit and firing - they're not as good as what the Aussies can field (and we'll probably play Foulkes and "discover" he's of minimal use in conditions where the ball won't swing).
And our batting line-up will likely have Latham, Conway, Blundell and even Little Kane - guys who are past their best and mostly (hopefully Kane still might) won't cope with Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Lyon - unless injuries or retirements strike.
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@Chris-B said in Ashes 2025/6:
we'll drop four or five catches per match and almost never hit the stumps. (Note to NZ Cricket - it may not yet be too late to fix this!)
the Steve Rixon approach.
I like it. Three facets fo the game, we may not spit out the top talent consistently batting or bowling, but there is no reason we can't be a top end fielding side. It takes a lot of practice.
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@Chris-B said in Ashes 2025/6:
@Virgil said in Ashes 2025/6:
Also its night and day with the fielding and keeping between the sides.
Unfortunately, that's a primary reason while we'll get our arses handed to us next summer. The Aussies catch pretty much everything and frequently get the sort of runout that Inglis engineered on Stokes - we'll drop four or five catches per match and almost never hit the stumps. (Note to NZ Cricket - it may not yet be too late to fix this!)
Even if we can turn up with Henry, Jamieson, O'Rourke, Sears, Duffy and Santner all fit and firing - they're not as good as what the Aussies can field (and we'll probably play Foulkes and "discover" he's of minimal use in conditions where the ball won't swing).
And our batting line-up will likely have Latham, Conway, Blundell and even Little Kane - guys who are past their best and mostly (hopefully Kane still might) won't cope with Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Lyon - unless injuries or retirements strike.
I'm extremely interested to see which of our pace attack get through to the end of the next WTC cycle.
And in typing that out I've realised we're now almost at the point where we align seasons to what is effectively the World Cup Final of Test Cricket, much like Rugby.
We've got Head, Weatherald, and Labuschagne at 31 which might present a fairly solid top 3.
Smith at 36, Green 26, Carey 34, and Inglis 30 - not sure if the latter will be a regular but he's not done too much wrong.
Starc 35, Boland 36, Cummins 32, Hazlewood 34 - a good group of pace guys to have around*
Lyon at 38 is the old man of the team, and despite getting publicly shitty at being dropped he is the GOAT.*I'm counting out Neser (35) and Doggett (31) at this point. There are probably younger options than Neser in particular
When you look at that list, and think about the careers, it is fairly clear a lot of these guys took their lumps and didn't lock in a spot until their late 20s. Think about Darren Lehmann, who had something like 7000 Shield runs before he made his Test debut, thanks in part to the Waugh-era domination and form of that particular middle order.
Cummins and Hazlewood have shown that injury can strike and so having a few guys bubbling away in Jhye Richardson, Sean Abbott, and some of the younger crowd could help.
While recognising that this England team are a bit shit - thanks mostly to a philosophy that seems to ignore reality - I feel a bit happier that we can survive the loss of one or two of our top pace guys. Better opposition might make me rethink that
At the same time, we need only look at the All Blacks side through the 20teens to understand that rotating in the odd young buck to give them a taste is a very useful exercise in terms of longevity of success. e.g. Todd Murphy or Kuhnemann for Lyon, even in a one-spin-option list.
Hopefully Bailey et al are paying attention.
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@NTA said in Ashes 2025/6:
@Chris-B said in Ashes 2025/6:
@Virgil said in Ashes 2025/6:
Also its night and day with the fielding and keeping between the sides.
Unfortunately, that's a primary reason while we'll get our arses handed to us next summer. The Aussies catch pretty much everything and frequently get the sort of runout that Inglis engineered on Stokes - we'll drop four or five catches per match and almost never hit the stumps. (Note to NZ Cricket - it may not yet be too late to fix this!)
Even if we can turn up with Henry, Jamieson, O'Rourke, Sears, Duffy and Santner all fit and firing - they're not as good as what the Aussies can field (and we'll probably play Foulkes and "discover" he's of minimal use in conditions where the ball won't swing).
And our batting line-up will likely have Latham, Conway, Blundell and even Little Kane - guys who are past their best and mostly (hopefully Kane still might) won't cope with Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Lyon - unless injuries or retirements strike.
I'm extremely interested to see which of our pace attack get through to the end of the next WTC cycle.
And in typing that out I've realised we're now almost at the point where we align seasons to what is effectively the World Cup Final of Test Cricket, much like Rugby.
We've got Head, Weatherald, and Labuschagne at 31 which might present a fairly solid top 3.
Smith at 36, Green 26, Carey 34, and Inglis 30 - not sure if the latter will be a regular but he's not done too much wrong.
Starc 35, Boland 36, Cummins 32, Hazlewood 34 - a good group of pace guys to have around*
Lyon at 38 is the old man of the team, and despite getting publicly shitty at being dropped he is the GOAT.*I'm counting out Neser (35) and Doggett (31) at this point. There are probably younger options than Neser in particular
When you look at that list, and think about the careers, it is fairly clear a lot of these guys took their lumps and didn't lock in a spot until their late 20s. Think about Darren Lehmann, who had something like 7000 Shield runs before he made his Test debut, thanks in part to the Waugh-era domination and form of that particular middle order.
Cummins and Hazlewood have shown that injury can strike and so having a few guys bubbling away in Jhye Richardson, Sean Abbott, and some of the younger crowd could help.
While recognising that this England team are a bit shit - thanks mostly to a philosophy that seems to ignore reality - I feel a bit happier that we can survive the loss of one or two of our top pace guys. Better opposition might make me rethink that
At the same time, we need only look at the All Blacks side through the 20teens to understand that rotating in the odd young buck to give them a taste is a very useful exercise in terms of longevity of success. e.g. Todd Murphy or Kuhnemann for Lyon, even in a one-spin-option list.
Hopefully Bailey et al are paying attention.
Yeah it's pretty freaky to think how many guys who'd walk into other test teams had to bide their time to get a shot or got limited chances or no chances at all. Lehman like you mentioned, David Hussey, Stuart Law, Michael Di Vunuto........even wannabe nude model Matt Hayden had to bide his time behind Tubby and Slats.
"Junior" despite a very good record possibly lucky that his twin bro was captain of the side.
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I read McCullum's book a few years back, and one thing that stuck with me is how important it was that he had a more conservative coach like Hesson that would always challenge him on tactics. He talked about that constant challenge meaning they found a really good balance between playing attacking cricket without taking it too far and throwing games away.
With "Bazball" growing a life of it's own, and the breath of fresh air it was for English fans who were frustrated at how negative previous English sides had played, I feel like McCullum isn't being challenged enough on it now. Especially with a captain like Stokes who is also attacking minded.
As @Chris-B pointed out, putting the shots away against Starc and just blunting him while attacking the other bowlers would have been smart, attacking cricket. But instead they just played the same way against all of the Aus bowlers, and Starc with all his class had a field day as a result. If he had someone challenging the approach more in the dressing room, I think they would play a lot smarter cricket.
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@No-Quarter said in Ashes 2025/6:
If he had someone challenging the approach more in the dressing room, I think they would play a lot smarter cricket.
Perfect example was Starc and Boland's partnership, which I think was the longest of the series so far.
Those are the conditions in front of you. Sometimes playing positive is just wearing down the opposition.
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@No-Quarter said in Ashes 2025/6:
I read McCullum's book a few years back, and one thing that stuck with me is how important it was that he had a more conservative coach like Hesson that would always challenge him on tactics. He talked about that constant challenge meaning they found a really good balance between playing attacking cricket without taking it too far and throwing games away.
With "Bazball" growing a life of it's own, and the breath of fresh air it was for English fans who were frustrated at how negative previous English sides had played, I feel like McCullum isn't being challenged enough on it now. Especially with a captain like Stokes who is also attacking minded.
As @Chris-B pointed out, putting the shots away against Starc and just blunting him while attacking the other bowlers would have been smart, attacking cricket. But instead they just played the same way against all of the Aus bowlers, and Starc with all his class had a field day as a result. If he had someone challenging the approach more in the dressing room, I think they would play a lot smarter cricket.
Yeah I think that balance was really key, and was noticeable for us with Kane/Stead that we had the opposite problem where we could get too conservative.
