European Club Rugby
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@stargazer it’s right up there with the stunt Dave Rennie pulled against the Hurricanes when he was coaching the Chiefs ..when his scrum was getting humped in the closing minutes , he claimed the only prop he had on the bench had never played tight head and that was after this particular prop had played several games at tighthead for the Steamers in the previous year .
..not sure if you remember the incident, can recall it was a player with a Tongan name -
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Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
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@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
I thought I heard the ref say they would go to uncontested scrums but have to have the full complement of 8, thereby leaving a man short in the backline.
With guaranteed possession that close to the line it would have been harder for Leicester not to score.
So Afoa on and roll the dice
Could be very wrong though
Either way, CHEATING fluffybunny
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@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
Surely they can be called to account for bringing the game into disrepute.
I want to know why the ref listened to Lam at all. The manager is responsible for the substitutions and reasons to the officials. Ref should've stuck with the paperwork.
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@antipodean said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
Surely they can be called to account for bringing the game into disrepute.
I want to know why the ref listened to Lam at all. The manager is responsible for the substitutions and reasons to the officials. Ref should've stuck with the paperwork.
There ought to be some sanction IMO, on the other point though the ref was put in an impossible position. The paperwork says one thing and Lam says another. What if the ref insists Afoa goes on the field and then he gets injured? The ref actually handled the whole thing very well (though he could have carded the bristol prop a bit earlier).
Pat Lam though was totally out of order and has done his reputation a fair bit of harm.
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Man there is no way the Capts Challenge is going into the law books!
“ The second half of the Blues-Zebre game lasted a ridiculous 67 minutes, with an even more ridiculous 23 of those spent waiting while TMO Ian Davies was called upon to adjudicate on seven captain’s challenges.
Mr. Davies might have been found guilty of betraying emotions a little, but he summed up quite succinctly the immediate feelings of all those watching when he said: “and now they’ve both lost their challenges, thank God!””
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@machpants said in NH club rugby:
Man there is no way the Capts Challenge is going into the law books!
“ The second half of the Blues-Zebre game lasted a ridiculous 67 minutes, with an even more ridiculous 23 of those spent waiting while TMO Ian Davies was called upon to adjudicate on seven captain’s challenges.
Mr. Davies might have been found guilty of betraying emotions a little, but he summed up quite succinctly the immediate feelings of all those watching when he said: “and now they’ve both lost their challenges, thank God!””
I completely agree with the comments and sentiment - however doesn't that mean that officials were constantly wrong for the teams to keep their challenges? They might want to look at the on field officiating, or have I just got that wrong?
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@snowy The point is if you look with a microscope, you'll find something at every ruck, just about. Record and slow down a match and really look. There's someone offside at every ruck, even just half his boot. No effect, but you could call that with deep TMO scrutiny.
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@machpants said in NH club rugby:
Bokke mess up their braai - ouch!
One of the dumb buggers threw petrol on the fire, hand caught alight, and then the can he was holding went boom.
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@machpants said in NH club rugby:
@snowy The point is if you look with a microscope, you'll find something at every ruck, just about. Record and slow down a match and really look. There's someone offside at every ruck, even just half his boot. No effect, but you could call that with deep TMO scrutiny.
Oh well aware of that, but the captains were obviously seeing things that three officials weren't (and a TMO) and they had it wrong or the teams would have lost the referral. That was all that I was getting at. I hate the referral by the way.
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@snowy said in NH club rugby:
@machpants said in NH club rugby:
@snowy The point is if you look with a microscope, you'll find something at every ruck, just about. Record and slow down a match and really look. There's someone offside at every ruck, even just half his boot. No effect, but you could call that with deep TMO scrutiny.
Oh well aware of that, but the captains were obviously seeing things that three officials weren't (and a TMO) and they had it wrong or they would have lost the referral. That was all that I was getting at. I hate the referral by the way.
the TMO is the worst thing to happen to rugby since whatever the last thing i really hated is.
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@machpants said in NH club rugby:
@snowy Yeah but we have seen refereals kept when the TMO saw something different to what the Capt was whingin about. I am not sure in that case, tho
Yeah and that is just daft. I'm not sure in this case either but we have seen it. They are doing the same shit in cricket. A referral has to be for a specific event or occurrence. They can't just go back and find "something" that wasn't even asked about.
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@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
To play devils advocate, perhaps he wasn't injured, but how safe would it have been for Afoa to go on at that point? I am none of a doctor, physician etc, but I do know that around 30 mins after a run, if I was to go out and do a sprint, it would likely result in a muscle tear / injury. John Afoa is not much younger than me. So lets say he plays 50 mins, subs off, then cools down for 28 mins. Then at that point, the ref claims he must come straight back on to a huge defensive scrum against a fully warmed up opposition.
Yes, there is light years difference between the fitness of a pro rugby player & me, but surely the same standards re warming up / warming / resting / recovery apply. Not least to a player much closer to 40, then 30?
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@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
To play devils advocate, perhaps he wasn't injured, but how safe would it have been for Afoa to go on at that point? I am none of a doctor, physician etc, but I do know that around 30 mins after a run, if I was to go out and do a sprint, it would likely result in a muscle tear / injury. John Afoa is not much younger than me. So lets say he plays 50 mins, subs off, then cools down for 28 mins. Then at that point, the ref claims he must come straight back on to a huge defensive scrum against a fully warmed up opposition.
Yes, there is light years difference between the fitness of a pro rugby player & me, but surely the same standards re warming up / warming / resting / recovery apply. Not least to a player much closer to 40, then 30?
You raise a valid point, but one that is for the rules to determine, not the head coach. Currently the rules say he should go back on unless he went off injured. Lam lied about it in order to gain an advantage. Here though I have to say that Afoa always seemed quite prepared to go back on, sure his later taunting of the Leicester 9 was a bit dickish but also a little understandable. I have no real problems with Afoa through this, but Pat Lam, a different matter.
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@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
To play devils advocate, perhaps he wasn't injured, but how safe would it have been for Afoa to go on at that point? I am none of a doctor, physician etc, but I do know that around 30 mins after a run, if I was to go out and do a sprint, it would likely result in a muscle tear / injury. John Afoa is not much younger than me. So lets say he plays 50 mins, subs off, then cools down for 28 mins. Then at that point, the ref claims he must come straight back on to a huge defensive scrum against a fully warmed up opposition.
Yes, there is light years difference between the fitness of a pro rugby player & me, but surely the same standards re warming up / warming / resting / recovery apply. Not least to a player much closer to 40, then 30?
You raise a valid point, but one that is for the rules to determine, not the head coach. Currently the rules say he should go back on unless he went off injured. Lam lied about it in order to gain an advantage. Here though I have to say that Afoa always seemed quite prepared to go back on, sure his later taunting of the Leicester 9 was a bit dickish but also a little understandable. I have no real problems with Afoa through this, but Pat Lam, a different matter.
I do agree, but yes, my point does have some merit.
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@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
To play devils advocate, perhaps he wasn't injured, but how safe would it have been for Afoa to go on at that point? I am none of a doctor, physician etc, but I do know that around 30 mins after a run, if I was to go out and do a sprint, it would likely result in a muscle tear / injury. John Afoa is not much younger than me. So lets say he plays 50 mins, subs off, then cools down for 28 mins. Then at that point, the ref claims he must come straight back on to a huge defensive scrum against a fully warmed up opposition.
Yes, there is light years difference between the fitness of a pro rugby player & me, but surely the same standards re warming up / warming / resting / recovery apply. Not least to a player much closer to 40, then 30?
You raise a valid point, but one that is for the rules to determine, not the head coach. Currently the rules say he should go back on unless he went off injured. Lam lied about it in order to gain an advantage. Here though I have to say that Afoa always seemed quite prepared to go back on, sure his later taunting of the Leicester 9 was a bit dickish but also a little understandable. I have no real problems with Afoa through this, but Pat Lam, a different matter.
Do we know that Lam was lying? I believe his claim was that he took off Afoa due to an injury concern, but it was mis-recorded as a substitution rather than an injury replacement. Was that his story?
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@gt12 said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@majorrage said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
Basically, a couple of minutes to go, Leicester 2 points down and all over Bristol, gaining 3 or 4 scrum penalties on 5m. Ref finally loses patience and cards the Bristol prop. Leicester opt for another scrum and ref calls for front row replacement. Afoa had been subbed off and was going to be recalled but Lam insisted he was injured, though Bristol had reported him subbed tactically at the time. Lam hoping for uncontested scrums. Other member of Bristol coaching team says Afoa not injured, Lam still claims he was. Afoa eventually goes on and Bristol scramble the ball into touch. Afoa taunts Leicester scrum half resulting in mass brawl.
Lam’s actions tantamount to cheating. Afoa just got a bit emotional and stupid.
To play devils advocate, perhaps he wasn't injured, but how safe would it have been for Afoa to go on at that point? I am none of a doctor, physician etc, but I do know that around 30 mins after a run, if I was to go out and do a sprint, it would likely result in a muscle tear / injury. John Afoa is not much younger than me. So lets say he plays 50 mins, subs off, then cools down for 28 mins. Then at that point, the ref claims he must come straight back on to a huge defensive scrum against a fully warmed up opposition.
Yes, there is light years difference between the fitness of a pro rugby player & me, but surely the same standards re warming up / warming / resting / recovery apply. Not least to a player much closer to 40, then 30?
You raise a valid point, but one that is for the rules to determine, not the head coach. Currently the rules say he should go back on unless he went off injured. Lam lied about it in order to gain an advantage. Here though I have to say that Afoa always seemed quite prepared to go back on, sure his later taunting of the Leicester 9 was a bit dickish but also a little understandable. I have no real problems with Afoa through this, but Pat Lam, a different matter.
Do we know that Lam was lying? I believe his claim was that he took off Afoa due to an injury concern, but it was mis-recorded as a substitution rather than an injury replacement. Was that his story?
I think his story (now) is that he always planned to take Afoa off at half-time, because he's recovering from an injury (?).
And therefore - from his point of view - it was injury-related, and why he didn't want him to go back on. But the team Manager, put it down as a tactical substitution, and that's where all the confusion arose.
Whether anybody believes that or not... I don't know. It kinda sounds plausible, but also kinda sounds like somebody back-tracking and figuring out a "fuzzy scenario" after the fact - where nobody's in the wrong, all just a big misunderstanding, nothing to see here.
