Rank your AB RWC coaches
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@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
TBF, they aren't even all that bad.
Lam and Seymour were tour call ups for injury, both were in bloody good domestic form at the time.
Howarth carved out a pretty good international career after his AB stint. And was another who was in bloody good domestic form when selected. He also was not from Otago or Harbour.
Turner was a form number 8 in NZ for a number of years, unsurprising he was tried even if the fat fuck failed.
Cooksley was selected by three different AB coaches, and like Fromont was a big guy they took a punt on as we were always searching for big locks (remember Tregaskis?)
@Nepia Pretty sure Lam and Seymour both played in the Sydney loss and so were discarded but your comments really support my point.
I was surprised but Mains wasn't that bad a selector and pretty much selected on form. Debutants anyway. Haven't got the time to go back and look at every run on squad but the biggest criticism has always been Pene over Zinny and at the time Pene was playing the better footy.
He did try a number of different options particularly at 9 and 10 but the barrel was pretty empty and although they weren't great AB's you can argue he chose the best options until people like Mehrts came along.
He didn't take MJ to RWC but that was an availability issue not a form one.
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@canefan revisionism
His poor years included series wins over the Lions and the Boks and very tight losses to the Wallabies.
He had a series loss to the French and some dodgy one-off test results but he rebuilt the team during a period when our options in certain positions were very limited.
He did make some strange decisions and had his favourites but he sorted that out. It also has to be noted that the decision most often quoted was choosing Pene ahead of Zinny but those that say that conveniently forget that Pene was voted player of the year when he kept Zinny on the bench.
All of thgis without the backing of Eddie Tonks or the media who were in the Hart camp and with Hart constantly working to undermine him.
It would be interesting to see how Hart would have gone if he had got the gig in 92 which he would have if he'd not tried to white ant Wyllie.
You can't ignore the results in 96/7 but that was Mains team plus Cullen who Mains would have had if he had been supported. Hart also made some strange calls and when he had to rebuild the team it all fell apart catastrophically.
IMO Hart is on a par with Fozie. Two great years undermined by two poor ones and eight years of systematically working to undermine AB rugby for his own personal interests. Something Fozzie has never done.
He was a mouthy arrogant prick as half-back who thought he was way better than he actually was . Nothing changed. Talk to anyone who worked with him at Fletchers and he is universally despised. He's the anti-Wayne Smith.
Lochore
Henry
Hansen
Mains
Hart
Mitchell
WyllieBased on RWC results
@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
He was a mouthy arrogant prick as half-back who thought he was way better than he actually was .
This part is unfair, mouthy arrogant prick is in the half-back job description!
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@Nepia Pretty sure Lam and Seymour both played in the Sydney loss and so were discarded but your comments really support my point.
I was surprised but Mains wasn't that bad a selector and pretty much selected on form. Debutants anyway. Haven't got the time to go back and look at every run on squad but the biggest criticism has always been Pene over Zinny and at the time Pene was playing the better footy.
He did try a number of different options particularly at 9 and 10 but the barrel was pretty empty and although they weren't great AB's you can argue he chose the best options until people like Mehrts came along.
He didn't take MJ to RWC but that was an availability issue not a form one.
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Anyway, Main's worst selection was Mitchell because it gave him the clout to play overseas and then get coaching jobs, then come back to NZ and waltz into the AB job on the back of one middling Super campaign, which almost ruining rugby as a pastime for me.
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Agree re Hart in 92
As for your comments about Mains as a selector I agree he was a better coach than selector, but I had a bit of time on my hands.
Here are the players who debuted under Mains
As you would expect it is dominated by the three leading sides of the era - Akl, Harbour, Otago. The 4th was Waikato but they didn't have as great a representation.
Canterbury started to come right at the end of his era.
I don't think there were that many out and out duds. The ones I have greyed are the ones IMO had a pretty average career but even then some extenuating factors.
Most were bench warmers. Stensness had a great third test against Lions (and replaced Little a Harbour man) Dowd G had the misfortune to sit behind Fitzy. Bachop best option at the time. Forster - like Pene one good year that justified selection. Mitchell chosen as a mid-week captain.
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
Not that much of a Harbour Otago bias.
By contrast Hart thought he could do a Michael Jones again and picked some real stinkers / unknowns.
@dogmeat The selection that really pissed me off at the time was dropping Gatland for Dowd. Waikato had a dominant scrum/pack at the time and Gatland was a big part of that in 1992/93.
Forster was a marginal selection for me too.
@Nepia If you asked us Mooloo supporters in 1993 which of the Waikato loose forward trio was most deserving of AB selection Mitchell would have been third on that list.
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@dogmeat The selection that really pissed me off at the time was dropping Gatland for Dowd. Waikato had a dominant scrum/pack at the time and Gatland was a big part of that in 1992/93.
Forster was a marginal selection for me too.
@Nepia If you asked us Mooloo supporters in 1993 which of the Waikato loose forward trio was most deserving of AB selection Mitchell would have been third on that list.
@Bovidae said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@dogmeat The selection that really pissed me off at the time was dropping Gatland for Dowd. Waikato had a dominant scrum/pack at the time and Gatland was a big part of that in 1992/93.
Forster was a marginal selection for me too.
@Nepia If you asked us Mooloo supporters in 1993 which of the Waikato loose forward trio was most deserving of AB selection Mitchell would have been third on that list.
Ah, it's all really about Monkley being overlooked.
Who was the blindside in the early 90s? Jerram?Obviously at that time I thought both Dowd and Gatland shouldn't have been there - it should have been Hewitt.
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Entirely academic really - no one was going to get on the park until Fitzy got crocked.
Dominant Waikato pack?
1992 Waikato 17 Harbour 30
1993 Harbour 18 Waikato 14
1994 Waikato 23 Harbour 35
1995 Harbour 28 Waikato 29@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
Entirely academic really - no one was going to get on the park until Fitzy got crocked.
Agree, but I'm sticking to my criticism.
Dominant Waikato pack?
Based on the performances against an AB-dominated Auckland team (e.g., 1992 SF and 1993 RS win). NH had a gun backline in that period though.
@Nepia Yes, Jerram.
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Agree re Hart in 92
As for your comments about Mains as a selector I agree he was a better coach than selector, but I had a bit of time on my hands.
Here are the players who debuted under Mains
As you would expect it is dominated by the three leading sides of the era - Akl, Harbour, Otago. The 4th was Waikato but they didn't have as great a representation.
Canterbury started to come right at the end of his era.
I don't think there were that many out and out duds. The ones I have greyed are the ones IMO had a pretty average career but even then some extenuating factors.
Most were bench warmers. Stensness had a great third test against Lions (and replaced Little a Harbour man) Dowd G had the misfortune to sit behind Fitzy. Bachop best option at the time. Forster - like Pene one good year that justified selection. Mitchell chosen as a mid-week captain.
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
Not that much of a Harbour Otago bias.
By contrast Hart thought he could do a Michael Jones again and picked some real stinkers / unknowns.
@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
Agree re Hart in 92
As for your comments about Mains as a selector I agree he was a better coach than selector, but I had a bit of time on my hands.
Here are the players who debuted under Mains
As you would expect it is dominated by the three leading sides of the era - Akl, Harbour, Otago. The 4th was Waikato but they didn't have as great a representation.
Canterbury started to come right at the end of his era.
I don't think there were that many out and out duds. The ones I have greyed are the ones IMO had a pretty average career but even then some extenuating factors.
Most were bench warmers. Stensness had a great third test against Lions (and replaced Little a Harbour man) Dowd G had the misfortune to sit behind Fitzy. Bachop best option at the time. Forster - like Pene one good year that justified selection. Mitchell chosen as a mid-week captain.
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
Not that much of a Harbour Otago bias.
By contrast Hart thought he could do a Michael Jones again and picked some real stinkers / unknowns.
I take offence to some of the ones you’ve shaded.
Alama Ieremia did his job in black, trucking it up unselfishly to set up Jonah/Tana/Goldie/Cully etc. there’s been far worse midfielders than him.
Mark Cooksley did pretty well at times. Tough for him to get past Jones/Brooke.
Marc Ellis had some good moments, it’s not the All Blacks fault he took off to league.
Simon Culhane was never going to get past Merhts/Spencer on a regular basis.
Then again, I just re read this post and some of these can be classed as “extenuating factors”
I’ve just had another look and Mains clearly hated the nations fine capital, wow !
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Who thinks NZ beat Aus if Umaga was selected at 13? McDonald was standing out of position when Spencer's pass was picked off by Mortlock. Umaga also wouldn't have let his midfield channel get dominated by the same guy throughout the match.
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@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
Agree re Hart in 92
As for your comments about Mains as a selector I agree he was a better coach than selector, but I had a bit of time on my hands.
Here are the players who debuted under Mains
As you would expect it is dominated by the three leading sides of the era - Akl, Harbour, Otago. The 4th was Waikato but they didn't have as great a representation.
Canterbury started to come right at the end of his era.
I don't think there were that many out and out duds. The ones I have greyed are the ones IMO had a pretty average career but even then some extenuating factors.
Most were bench warmers. Stensness had a great third test against Lions (and replaced Little a Harbour man) Dowd G had the misfortune to sit behind Fitzy. Bachop best option at the time. Forster - like Pene one good year that justified selection. Mitchell chosen as a mid-week captain.
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
Not that much of a Harbour Otago bias.
By contrast Hart thought he could do a Michael Jones again and picked some real stinkers / unknowns.
I take offence to some of the ones you’ve shaded.
Alama Ieremia did his job in black, trucking it up unselfishly to set up Jonah/Tana/Goldie/Cully etc. there’s been far worse midfielders than him.
Mark Cooksley did pretty well at times. Tough for him to get past Jones/Brooke.
Marc Ellis had some good moments, it’s not the All Blacks fault he took off to league.
Simon Culhane was never going to get past Merhts/Spencer on a regular basis.
Then again, I just re read this post and some of these can be classed as “extenuating factors”
I’ve just had another look and Mains clearly hated the nations fine capital, wow !
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@MN5 said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
I’ve just had another look and Mains clearly hated the nations fine capital, wow !
Did they have any decent players in that era?
@Nepia said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@MN5 said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
I’ve just had another look and Mains clearly hated the nations fine capital, wow !
Did they have any decent players in that era?
Jon Preston ? He was picked earlier obviously……
Also a bunch of guys who had all too brief careers but were more than decent like Filo Tiatia, Marty Berry, Jason O’Halloran……
…..also soon to be Scotsmen Gordon Simpson and Marty Leslie.
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@Nepia said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@MN5 said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
I’ve just had another look and Mains clearly hated the nations fine capital, wow !
Did they have any decent players in that era?
Jon Preston ? He was picked earlier obviously……
Also a bunch of guys who had all too brief careers but were more than decent like Filo Tiatia, Marty Berry, Jason O’Halloran……
…..also soon to be Scotsmen Gordon Simpson and Marty Leslie.
@MN5 said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@Nepia said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@MN5 said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
I’ve just had another look and Mains clearly hated the nations fine capital, wow !
Did they have any decent players in that era?
Jon Preston ? He was picked earlier obviously……
Also a bunch of guys who had all too brief careers but were more than decent like Filo Tiatia, Marty Berry, Jason O’Halloran……
…..also soon to be Scotsmen Gordon Simpson and Marty Leslie.
So he picked Preston and selected Berry again after a 7 year gap. Tiatia and O'Halloran were probably too early in this careers. And the Scots were Scots level.
I don't think Mains hated the capital, they just didn't have that many pickable players at the time.
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Who thinks NZ beat Aus if Umaga was selected at 13? McDonald was standing out of position when Spencer's pass was picked off by Mortlock. Umaga also wouldn't have let his midfield channel get dominated by the same guy throughout the match.
@kiwi_expat I thought that was Deans' fault?
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My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.@Canes4life said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.Cullen was spent by 2003. People wanted him to be the same Cullen. Unfortunately he was no longer the same guy.
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@Canes4life said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.Cullen was spent by 2003. People wanted him to be the same Cullen. Unfortunately he was no longer the same guy.
@KiwiMurph said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@Canes4life said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.Cullen was spent by 2003. People wanted him to be the same Cullen. Unfortunately he was no longer the same guy.
That's not true at all. He was still the best fullback in the country that year even if he wasn't peak Cullen.
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@KiwiMurph said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@Canes4life said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.Cullen was spent by 2003. People wanted him to be the same Cullen. Unfortunately he was no longer the same guy.
That's not true at all. He was still the best fullback in the country that year even if he wasn't peak Cullen.
@Nepia said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@KiwiMurph said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@Canes4life said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.Cullen was spent by 2003. People wanted him to be the same Cullen. Unfortunately he was no longer the same guy.
That's not true at all. He was still the best fullback in the country that year even if he wasn't peak Cullen.
He’d lost that yard of pace that meant he went from outstanding to just “good” but yeah, probably still the best.
If only Foster was his coach, he’d have picked him no matter what.
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@KiwiMurph said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@Canes4life said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.Cullen was spent by 2003. People wanted him to be the same Cullen. Unfortunately he was no longer the same guy.
That's not true at all. He was still the best fullback in the country that year even if he wasn't peak Cullen.
@Nepia said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@KiwiMurph said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@Canes4life said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
My worst coaches in no particular order are:
Mitchell because he dropped Cullen.
Hart because he played Cullen at centre.
Foster because he’s damaged the All Black’s reputation with his shit record.Cullen was spent by 2003. People wanted him to be the same Cullen. Unfortunately he was no longer the same guy.
That's not true at all. He was still the best fullback in the country that year even if he wasn't peak Cullen.
He was better than fůcking Ben Blair and Ben Atiga.
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Main was an interesting one. Mixed some of the best AB performances of all time with some of the worst. His constant cutting and changing didn't help. I think much of the RWC powder dry arguments come from the fact that he deliberately (or so he claims) played conservatively in 94 to hide his plans for 95. Certainly there is night and day between those teams, but also no Mehrtens, Kronfeld, Osborne, and (ready) Lomu. But I think they definitely took the pace of the game to another level and Mains has to be credited with that.
Hart gets shit for the Cullen 13 thing but tbf he was being bombarded with calls to make it happen. And it wasn't a disaster or anything, but Cullen was just a much better 15.
