All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.
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@reprobate so we'd win more games if we had Pocock
I think the balance we have works very well for us.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate so we'd win more games if we had Pocock
Just think. If we had Pocock we would already have the tier one record because we would have a winning record above 100%
Awesome.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
IIRC Retallick is used very sparingly at lineout time as well. It's a massive benefit having that extra lineout option even if he is rarely used.
I just don't see the upside here. The number of turnovers won with him vs the number won by the team as whole without him would be negligible. So you win maybe a couple more turnovers a game and sacrifice a lineout option and any attacking threat.
IMHO that's a really shit trade off.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
Worth noting that Pocock has been playing at 8 as part of poopah so should be compared to lineout takes by Read. But that points more to the impact of playing him and Hoopah together.
As Rancid said I would be interested on the overall team turnover stats to see if he is making a difference to the overall stats or whether he is just getting all of them.
IMO his work with the ball is a serious weakness not just 'average'. Owen Franks has better ball skills FFS. That is a serious black mark.
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Looking at Cane & Richie over the last 3 seasons the 2 core things we are getting from our 7 is impact tackling (ie not just tackling, but hitting the guy way behind the advantage lines & hitting him very hard indeed - something Wayne Smith is big on) and carrying in the 10 channel.
Both Richie & Cane have been doing that far more than traditional pilfering a-la Kronfield or early Richie (tho' a lot like 1987-8 Michael Jones)
One of the reasons Ardie has been a bit "M'eh" in black is he lacks the ability to tackle hard & fast like Cane has. He tackles, just without the impact. Hansen wants him to add 5kg (presumably to his chest & shoulders) and that'll get him up there you'd expect.
Poccock in contrast is a very passive tackler, he rides tackles down to get up for the turnover, his tackle style is polls apart from the way the ABs are using their 7. As others have noted a big part of the AB strategy is if the first up tackler creams a guy the next guy in - regardless of who that is, has the skill set to pilfer if its on. The key skill is the creaming bit, everyone has the pilfer skill.
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@ACT-Crusader but his play at super level isnt what is being discussed is it?
I dont think his trick is as effective at International level without the other strings, his one trick seems easy enough to nullify (famous last words and all)
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@ACT-Crusader but his play at super level isnt what is being discussed is it?
I dont think his trick is as effective at International level without the other strings, his one trick seems easy enough to nullify (famous last words and all)
But from my viewing he's brought that to the test arena as well as the combination with Fardy has continued to develop.
I guess I see a lot of upside with Pocock's game as a rugby fan and don't see him as a 'one trick pony' as is often touted.
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Nah I've watched a fair bit of Pocock this year - what his game lacks hurts the team more than the odd pinch adds I reckon. He's out of the game more than he's in it, plus when his strength gets shutdown he doesn't forget it and move on to focusing on other areas, he continues on and takes himself out of the game even more.
It's something I see too much of in Ardie also, a lot of hovering around, almost seems to be tackle dodging at times, waiting for a moment to spot a turnover rather than concentrating on just getting in and defending hard and accurate (if you're focused on eyeing up a turnover opp, you're often not set for a decent tackle or at all).
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@taniwharugby but with McCaw we did get turnovers. But he also had Hore, Read, Rodders, JC, Mealamu getting them as well.
Pocock has predominantly played a Lone Ranger until Fardy came along and that has seen Pocock evolve his game. That has been particularly evident at the Brumbies with more ball handling and link play in attack.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby but with McCaw we did get turnovers. But he also had Hore, Read, Rodders, JC, Mealamu getting them as well.
Pocock has predominantly played a Lone Ranger until Fardy came along and that has seen Pocock evolve his game. That has been particularly evident at the Brumbies with more ball handling and link play in attack.
I don't know if you're being funny here, but the Brumbies have shown sweet fa when it comes to attacking play other than Pocock being at the back of a maul.
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Nah I've watched a fair bit of Pocock this year - what his game lacks hurts the team more than the odd pinch adds I reckon. He's out of the game more than he's in it, plus when his strength gets shutdown he doesn't forget it and move on to focusing on other areas, he continues on and takes himself out of the game even more.
It's something I see too much of in Ardie also, a lot of hovering around, almost seems to be tackle dodging at times, waiting for a moment to spot a turnover rather than concentrating on just getting in and defending hard and accurate (if you're focused on eyeing up a turnover opp, you're often not set for a decent tackle or at all).
@Bones funny as that would be more my description for Hooper. His tackle rate is fairly low for an openside and he loves that 2nd or 3rd man in play.
What I do like about Hooper is how he attacks. We all know he's got wheels, but he is pretty abrasive for a smallish unit.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@ACT-Crusader but his play at super level isnt what is being discussed is it?
I dont think his trick is as effective at International level without the other strings, his one trick seems easy enough to nullify (famous last words and all)
But from my viewing he's brought that to the test arena as well as the combination with Fardy has continued to develop.
I guess I see a lot of upside with Pocock's game as a rugby fan and don't see him as a 'one trick pony' as is often touted.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
I guess I see a lot of upside with Pocock's game as a rugby fan and don't see him as a 'one trick pony' as is often touted.
I'd find seeing upside in any 28 year old player starting his 11th year of professional footy next year strange.
He is a year younger than Vito, the same age as Franks, Whitelock and Matt Todd - I hope we all have upside left in those guys too!
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The matchday 23 is (with Test caps in brackets):
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Joe Moody (19)
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Dane Coles (45)
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Owen Franks (86)
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Brodie Retallick (56)
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Samuel Whitelock (81)
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Jerome Kaino (73)
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Matt Todd (5)
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Kieran Read - capt (93)
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TJ Perenara (25)
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Beauden Barrett (45)
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Julian Savea (48)
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Ryan Crotty (23)
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Anton Lienert-Brown (5)
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Israel Dagg (57)
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Ben Smith (57)
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Codie Taylor (10)
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Wyatt Crockett (54)
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Charlie Faumuina (41)
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Liam Squire (5)
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Ardie Savea (8)
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Tawera Kerr-Barlow (23)
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Aaron Cruden (42)
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Malakai Fekitoa (19)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11732157
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So all the big guns excluding Cane, A. Smith and arguably Savea over Naholo, Hansen not playing silly buggers with the record game, which is great from a rugby fan perspective, but not so much from a Wallabies supporter perspective.
Wonder why Cane is not playing if he is fit?
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So all the big guns excluding Cane, A. Smith and arguably Savea over Naholo, Hansen not playing silly buggers with the record game, which is great from a rugby fan perspective, but not so much from a Wallabies supporter perspective.
Wonder why Cane is not playing if he is fit?
@Sapetyvi said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
So all the big guns excluding Cane, A. Smith and arguably Savea over Naholo, Hansen not playing silly buggers with the record game, which is great from a rugby fan perspective, but not so much from a Wallabies supporter perspective.
Wonder why Cane is not playing if he is fit?
Probably underdone match-fitness wise according to their training data. Give him some extra time before the EOYT.
Glad Augie has been released to play the inbreds.
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@Sapetyvi said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
So all the big guns excluding Cane, A. Smith and arguably Savea over Naholo, Hansen not playing silly buggers with the record game, which is great from a rugby fan perspective, but not so much from a Wallabies supporter perspective.
Wonder why Cane is not playing if he is fit?
Probably underdone match-fitness wise according to their training data. Give him some extra time before the EOYT.
Glad Augie has been released to play the inbreds.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
Worth noting that Pocock has been playing at 8 as part of poopah so should be compared to lineout takes by Read. But that points more to the impact of playing him and Hoopah together.
As Rancid said I would be interested on the overall team turnover stats to see if he is making a difference to the overall stats or whether he is just getting all of them.
IMO his work with the ball is a serious weakness not just 'average'. Owen Franks has better ball skills FFS. That is a serious black mark.
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
Worth noting that Pocock has been playing at 8 as part of poopah so should be compared to lineout takes by Read.
not at all, different teams use different guys to jump depending on their strengths, and the original question was simply which aussies in an anzac squad.
i don't think it is particularly controversial to say that (probably) the aussies best player over the last 5 years or so would make that squad ahead of ardie savea who has started 2 tests, and matt todd who will start his 2nd this weekend. i'm pretty sure that the rest of the rugby world outside of nz would lean that way too.
i can't help but think that it's similar to the way people here disregard/slag o'driscoll, which also disappoints me. these blokes can play, and there's no harm in acknowledging that.
