Eligibility back on the agenda
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@semper Firstly, to be clear, I am not a fan of Fekitoa playing for the All Blacks either. I understand that people make life choices for whatever reason and I respect that - just like I respect Aki's decison.
But what you are talking about is not the same situation. I've seen early interviews with Fekitoa which I've not been comfortable with either - those a young man from Tonga stating clearly that he wants to play for the All Blacks, and also saying that he would only play for Tonga, if he could't make the All Blacks. I don't really like that either.
Now, can you honestly say that either of these things happened for Aki? He wanted to play for Ireland? Before bags of money were hung before him? No way. The situation is totally different, it's not even remotely the same.
I appreciate your frustration in that some of my original thoughts may have been inaccurate fallacies brought about by reading media from those who should know better, as we down here have suffered that same fate for many a year. But lets compare apples with apples.
EDIT: Also this - So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to a country where he has no familial ties and no previous relationship with and the other is about doing the same with an adult. All based purely on their skills with an oval ball.
Do you have any idea at all about the demographic of the NZ make up? Here's a heads up. Tonga has a population of 100,000. NZ has a Tongan population of around 75,000. No familial ties you say?
@MajorRage said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Firstly, to be clear, I am not a fan of Fekitoa playing for the All Blacks either. I understand that people make life choices for whatever reason and I respect that - just like I respect Aki's decison.
But what you are talking about is not the same situation. I've seen early interviews with Fekitoa which I've not been comfortable with either - those a young man from Tonga stating clearly that he wants to play for the All Blacks, and also saying that he would only play for Tonga, if he could't make the All Blacks. I don't really like that either.
Are you comfortable with the ones that go the other way. Guys like Kahn Fotuali'i have interview where they talk about when they decided to give up on chasing the AB dream, TNW basically said during the 2015 Super season he was going to use the 7s loophole if he didn't make the ABs this year.
For every Fekitoa or Seta there are 10 Winston Stanleys and Paul Williams.
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@MajorRage said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Firstly, to be clear, I am not a fan of Fekitoa playing for the All Blacks either. I understand that people make life choices for whatever reason and I respect that - just like I respect Aki's decison.
But what you are talking about is not the same situation. I've seen early interviews with Fekitoa which I've not been comfortable with either - those a young man from Tonga stating clearly that he wants to play for the All Blacks, and also saying that he would only play for Tonga, if he could't make the All Blacks. I don't really like that either.
Are you comfortable with the ones that go the other way. Guys like Kahn Fotuali'i have interview where they talk about when they decided to give up on chasing the AB dream, TNW basically said during the 2015 Super season he was going to use the 7s loophole if he didn't make the ABs this year.
For every Fekitoa or Seta there are 10 Winston Stanleys and Paul Williams.
@rotated said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@MajorRage said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Firstly, to be clear, I am not a fan of Fekitoa playing for the All Blacks either. I understand that people make life choices for whatever reason and I respect that - just like I respect Aki's decison.
But what you are talking about is not the same situation. I've seen early interviews with Fekitoa which I've not been comfortable with either - those a young man from Tonga stating clearly that he wants to play for the All Blacks, and also saying that he would only play for Tonga, if he could't make the All Blacks. I don't really like that either.
Are you comfortable with the ones that go the other way. Guys like Kahn Fotuali'i have interview where they talk about when they decided to give up on chasing the AB dream, TNW basically said during the 2015 Super season he was going to use the 7s loophole if he didn't make the ABs this year.
For every Fekitoa or Seta there are 10 Winston Stanleys and Paul Williams.
I've no problem with it. Improves the competitiveness of world rugby and rights a wrong of globalisation and colonialism.
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@MajorRage said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Pot-Hale Really? So are you telling me the IRFU at no point had Aki playing for Ireland in their agenda at any point in time? Same as Jared Payne??
http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/mcassidy/irfu-special-player-project-waste-time-money/
You do realise that quoting Pundit Arena as a source is the equivalent of 'I met a bloke last week who said he met another fella....'
Of course, the IRFU were aware that an uncapped player who remains in the country after 3 years becomes qualified. That's what the PSS was about - reducing quotas on foreign capped imports and (after uproar by provinces) allowing 1 player in who might qualify to play for Ireland through residency. Connacht wanting to bring in Aki would have been subject to similar scrutiny as Borlase, van den Heever, etc for Munster. (Not a lot). It was Lam who persuaded him to come and buy into the vision he had for the province. That's what motivated a lot of the players that he's brought in since he arrived. My point was that the provinces identify the players, not the IRFU. Who knows whether they'll work out or not during their contract period. It's a bit of a lottery. Some contracts are only one year, others two, some three. Some might want to leave after less than a year. Some might be perma injured all the time. Some might not simply be good enough. Some might get homesick. Some might choose to move on to another team/country. Some might be loaned to another province. All of these scenarios have occurred with so-called project players.
Aki is not a happy camper about Lam's departure. Aki's contract was up in June 2017. But he wouldn't have been qualified at that point. He had offers to go elsewhere. And as he said himself, he could potentially play for 2-3 countries - Samoa, NZ or Ireland if he stayed. But he was persuaded to sign a new three-year contract with Connacht with business support to augment his salary for the period, presumably based on their PRO12 success, and a chance to qualify and play in Champions Cup, and if he's playing well, to be selected for test rugby. I suspect that with Lam leaving, he may think their continuing chances of success won't be as good. And that might affect his chances of selection.
If he's selected by Schmidt and capped, then at some point, he might be given a central contract which would alleviate Connacht's wage bill somewhat.
Oh and in case it's not clear, I sincerely hope he gets fed up and leaves. Henshaw, Ringrose, Marshall, Olding, Scannell, McCloskey will do me just fine in the green shirt.
@Pot-Hale said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
My point was that the provinces identify the players, not the IRFU.Even if that is the case, which I highly doubt it is, why that is even relevant.
Whether or not the IRFU are specifically saying to the Connacht go after that Counties centre or to Leinster go get JGP is irrelevant. They set a criteria for a certain type of player, and acting in their best interests the clubs are going to fill that slot with the best player available to them. Win/win.
In interviews with Gibson-Park after he left he made his signing seem like an initiative from the IRFU as much as Lienster.
We know the IRFU were knees deep in the Aki resigning with Schmidt and Nucifora on record as having been involved in the negotiations. So it's not too much of a stretch to think those at HQ have been involved in new signings too.
The IRFU are hardly at an arms length on this as you seem to be suggesting.
I'll be curious to see how far the Irish push it if Pichot's reforms fail wouldn't put it past them to try and sneak Saili through the 7s loophole if/when the time comes.
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@Crucial said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Pot-Hale said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@mariner4life said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia of course he is. The Irish are remarkably sensitive about their state-sanctioned poaching agenda.
Probably because most of their poaches are decidedly average
State-sanctioned? The Irish government has nothing to do with how professional sport is run in the country.
They do have to issue the visas and work permits that make it possible though.
That's rubbish. If you are paid more than about 35k a year and your employer can string a sentence together about how you can't recruit some one locally with that skill set you'll get an Irish visa. For a rugby player that is not a hard bar to jump.
Would a work permit have been required in Fekitoa's case?
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Crucial said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Pot-Hale said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@mariner4life said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia of course he is. The Irish are remarkably sensitive about their state-sanctioned poaching agenda.
Probably because most of their poaches are decidedly average
State-sanctioned? The Irish government has nothing to do with how professional sport is run in the country.
They do have to issue the visas and work permits that make it possible though.
That's rubbish. If you are paid more than about 35k a year and your employer can string a sentence together about how you can't recruit some one locally with that skill set you'll get an Irish visa. For a rugby player that is not a hard bar to jump.
Would a work permit have been required in Fekitoa's case?
It isn't rubbish at all, I was merely stating a fact. The state agrees to the import of a rugby player by issuing a visa.
I never said they ONLY do it for project players or even implied that there is anything different here than how others are treated.
By the way, a quick glance at the Irish Immigration website tells me that a simple work permit wouldn't do the trick. There is a special sports and arts category, the initial visa only lasts for 2 years (but can be extended).
So it seems that a certain category of person IS actually offered a different deal to the average worker.
NZ has a very similar programme however Fekitoa would also have been possibly granted residence under the the Pacific Access immigration programme which has no relationship to sports. -
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being eligible...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being ...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
Fekitoa was not offered a scholarship on strength of his academic work. It was a rugby scholarship, with the benefits of it based on his rugby skills and naught else.
So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to a country where he has no familial ties and no previous relationship with and the other is about doing the same with an adult. All based purely on their skills with an oval ball.
I don't stand over Irish project players. I would happily only play residnecy qualified players for Ireland if they hold an Irish or UK passport. I am just asking for consistency from those who criticise what Ireland does.
@semper you asked if there was a substantive difference, I provided it, you then changed tact.
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Gus Pichot looking to tighten some loop holes:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11764603
I see the difference as
(a)
to deliberately look overseas for players ,(B) And to pick players in your backyard that are already there ,
While (b) still needs looking at with guys that are questionable , to poach from another country is on another level ,
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@semper you asked if there was a substantive difference, I provided it, you then changed tact.
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper you asked if there was a substantive difference, I provided it, you then changed tact.
I don't see that as being a substantive, meaningful difference.
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@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper you asked if there was a substantive difference, I provided it, you then changed tact.
I don't see that as being a substantive, meaningful difference.
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I see the difference as
(a)
to deliberately look overseas for players ,(B) And to pick players in your backyard that are already there ,
While (b) still needs looking at with guys that are questionable , to poach from another country is on another level ,
@kiwiinmelb said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
I see the difference as
(a)
to deliberately look overseas for players ,(B) And to pick players in your backyard that are already there ,
While (b) still needs looking at with guys that are questionable , to poach from another country is on another level ,
In the case of (a) it is a flow of players who can't play with better rugby countries to weaker rugby countries and in the case of (b) it is a flow of players from weaker rugby countries to better rugby countries.
One is intentional and the other apparently is not, although I suspect the NZRFU were as knees deep in Fekitoa's contract with Highlanders as anything the IRFU have done.
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@semper nothing substantive or meaningful about a guy who already moved to another country vs a guy who moved just to play rugby? Sure ok. Not on the troll at all.
@Bones said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper nothing substantive or meaningful about a guy who already moved to another country vs a guy who moved just to play rugby? Sure ok. Not on the troll at all.
Fekitoa moved to New Zealand to play rugby. Nothing more or less. He wasn't in New Zealand because of family or any nonews rugby related reasons. His alternative option according to himself appears to have been to go to Australia to play league but a school scholarship seems to have been more attractive. Hmmm....
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@Pot-Hale said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
My point was that the provinces identify the players, not the IRFU.Even if that is the case, which I highly doubt it is, why that is even relevant.
Whether or not the IRFU are specifically saying to the Connacht go after that Counties centre or to Leinster go get JGP is irrelevant. They set a criteria for a certain type of player, and acting in their best interests the clubs are going to fill that slot with the best player available to them. Win/win.
In interviews with Gibson-Park after he left he made his signing seem like an initiative from the IRFU as much as Lienster.
We know the IRFU were knees deep in the Aki resigning with Schmidt and Nucifora on record as having been involved in the negotiations. So it's not too much of a stretch to think those at HQ have been involved in new signings too.
The IRFU are hardly at an arms length on this as you seem to be suggesting.
I'll be curious to see how far the Irish push it if Pichot's reforms fail wouldn't put it past them to try and sneak Saili through the 7s loophole if/when the time comes.
I'll be curious to see how far the Irish push it if Pichot's reforms fail wouldn't put it past them to try and sneak Saili through the 7s loophole if/when the time comes.
Saili would have to firstly not be injured all the time, and get a good run of games in where he was more than a show pony. Once he did that then he would need to go back in time and stop himself getting his two senior All Black caps.
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There won't be any changes to the residency rules while countries highlight other people's behaviour as the problem and don't acknowledge any issue with their own.
The only top tier country that has clean hands on this is Argentinia and that is because they didn't have any professional structures that would have meant there were any foreigners hanging around there for three years plus playing rugby.
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@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper you asked if there was a substantive difference, I provided it, you then changed tact.
I don't see that as being a substantive, meaningful difference.
@semper what a 15/16yr old school boy vs a guy in his 20's and already a pro rugby player, righto, although I guess they both play rugby, so valid comparison afterall.
I wonder why they dont tie schoolboys to the country they play for at 7s or 15s...
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@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being eligible...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being ...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
Fekitoa was not offered a scholarship on strength of his academic work. It was a rugby scholarship, with the benefits of it based on his rugby skills and naught else.
So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to a country where he has no familial ties and no previous relationship with and the other is about doing the same with an adult. All based purely on their skills with an oval ball.
I don't stand over Irish project players. I would happily only play residnecy qualified players for Ireland if they hold an Irish or UK passport. I am just asking for consistency from those who criticise what Ireland does.
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being eligible...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being ...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to ...
Hmmm ... That language is reminiscent of the type of argument used around poaching in the 00s. Fekitoa was not forced to move. Seems indicative of an in grained attitude.
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@semper what a 15/16yr old school boy vs a guy in his 20's and already a pro rugby player, righto, although I guess they both play rugby, so valid comparison afterall.
I wonder why they dont tie schoolboys to the country they play for at 7s or 15s...
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper what a school boy vs a guy in his 20's and already a pro rugby player, righto.
I wonder why they dont tie schoolboys to the country they play for at 7s or 15s...
Presumably because as a kid you have diminished decision making capacity?
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@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper what a school boy vs a guy in his 20's and already a pro rugby player, righto.
I wonder why they dont tie schoolboys to the country they play for at 7s or 15s...
Presumably because as a kid you have diminished decision making capacity?
@semper and yet you are comparing the 2 situations saying there is no substantiative difference?
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@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being eligible...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being ...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to ...
Hmmm ... That language is reminiscent of the type of argument used around poaching in the 00s. Fekitoa was not forced to move. Seems indicative of an in grained attitude.
@booboo said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being eligible...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being ...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to ...
Hmmm ... That language is reminiscent of the type of argument used around poaching in the 00s. Fekitoa was not forced to move. Seems indicative of an in grained attitude.
No one said he was forced to move and it has worked out very well for him.
As a rule I think moving youngsters around to play rugby or soccer or Aussie rules isn't in their general best interests - they've about 50 years to live after they stop playing sport and a proper education will help them more in the vast majority of cases.
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@semper and yet you are comparing the 2 situations saying there is no substantiative difference?
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper and yet you are comparing the 2 situations saying there is no substantiative difference?
A fair point, but a reason why schooling should not count towards residency in either the actuality or the subsequent justifications?
I'm also interested in the three years after school where he was on various rugby contracts by bodies controlled by the NZRFU. Do you think that Fekitoa would have, prior to getting residncy
(A) Received exactly the same contracts if he had declared for Tonga;
(B) received a better one if he had declared for Tonga; or
(C) received a worse one if he had played for Tonga?
In the case of Aki, if he was to announce tomorrow he was to play for another country, he would probably receive the same contract from Connacht but would be operating under a system where he would only have a two year horizon before being moved on.
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@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper and yet you are comparing the 2 situations saying there is no substantiative difference?
A fair point, but a reason why schooling should not count towards residency in either the actuality or the subsequent justifications?
I'm also interested in the three years after school where he was on various rugby contracts by bodies controlled by the NZRFU. Do you think that Fekitoa would have, prior to getting residncy
(A) Received exactly the same contracts if he had declared for Tonga;
(B) received a better one if he had declared for Tonga; or
(C) received a worse one if he had played for Tonga?
In the case of Aki, if he was to announce tomorrow he was to play for another country, he would probably receive the same contract from Connacht but would be operating under a system where he would only have a two year horizon before being moved on.
@semper who knows, it is all hypothetical, plus some use that pathway of getting into super rugby, get the exposure for a big Euro contract too.
NZ Rugby has had plenty of players over the years that have forged out careers in NPC and Super rugby while playing for another country early on.
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@kiwiinmelb said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
I see the difference as
(a)
to deliberately look overseas for players ,(B) And to pick players in your backyard that are already there ,
While (b) still needs looking at with guys that are questionable , to poach from another country is on another level ,
In the case of (a) it is a flow of players who can't play with better rugby countries to weaker rugby countries and in the case of (b) it is a flow of players from weaker rugby countries to better rugby countries.
One is intentional and the other apparently is not, although I suspect the NZRFU were as knees deep in Fekitoa's contract with Highlanders as anything the IRFU have done.
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@kiwiinmelb said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
I see the difference as
(a)
to deliberately look overseas for players ,(B) And to pick players in your backyard that are already there ,
While (b) still needs looking at with guys that are questionable , to poach from another country is on another level ,
In the case of (a) it is a flow of players who can't play with better rugby countries to weaker rugby countries and in the case of (b) it is a flow of players from weaker rugby countries to better rugby countries.
One is intentional and the other apparently is not, although I suspect the NZRFU were as knees deep in Fekitoa's contract with Highlanders as anything the IRFU have done.
My point was different levels of being morally wrong , both wrong though , and both need to be looked at .
Most in NZ welcome the idea of eligibility rules being tightened , maybe if our depth wasn't great you would see some opposition to that , I'm not sure , but the general feeling here is it needs to be tighter, we welcome it .
