Six Nations 2017
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@profitius definitely agree on the hype thing about Itoje. Had a Welshman tell me before Xmas that Itoje is better than anyone we have in the Southern hemisphere and we should be very worried when he makes the Lions tour squad! Only time will tell I guess but one season doesn't make u the man, and I think back to others like James Simpson Daniel (who stepped past Jonah once in a Babas game)... Tom Varndell (quickest man alive)... Andrew Sheridan (who was gonna destroy Hayman apparently ).. And good ol Danny- never far from the news - Cipriani to name a few
@Kiwidom said in Six Nations 2017:
@profitius definitely agree on the hype thing about Itoje. Had a Welshman tell me before Xmas that Itoje is better than anyone we have in the Southern hemisphere and we should be very worried when he makes the Lions tour squad! Only time will tell I guess but one season doesn't make u the man, and I think back to others like James Simpson Daniel (who stepped past Jonah once in a Babas game)... Tom Varndell (quickest man alive)... Andrew Sheridan (who was gonna destroy Hayman apparently ).. And good ol Danny- never far from the news - Cipriani to name a few
That (bolded) sort of comment always makes me laugh. Certainly there are danger men but rugby is first and foremost a team game. Even the likes of Dan Carter would struggle to make an impact in a team of flids.
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@Kiwidom said in Six Nations 2017:
@profitius definitely agree on the hype thing about Itoje. Had a Welshman tell me before Xmas that Itoje is better than anyone we have in the Southern hemisphere and we should be very worried when he makes the Lions tour squad! Only time will tell I guess but one season doesn't make u the man, and I think back to others like James Simpson Daniel (who stepped past Jonah once in a Babas game)... Tom Varndell (quickest man alive)... Andrew Sheridan (who was gonna destroy Hayman apparently ).. And good ol Danny- never far from the news - Cipriani to name a few
That (bolded) sort of comment always makes me laugh. Certainly there are danger men but rugby is first and foremost a team game. Even the likes of Dan Carter would struggle to make an impact in a team of flids.
@Catogrande said in Six Nations 2017:
@Kiwidom said in Six Nations 2017:
@profitius definitely agree on the hype thing about Itoje. Had a Welshman tell me before Xmas that Itoje is better than anyone we have in the Southern hemisphere and we should be very worried when he makes the Lions tour squad! Only time will tell I guess but one season doesn't make u the man, and I think back to others like James Simpson Daniel (who stepped past Jonah once in a Babas game)... Tom Varndell (quickest man alive)... Andrew Sheridan (who was gonna destroy Hayman apparently ).. And good ol Danny- never far from the news - Cipriani to name a few
That (bolded) sort of comment always makes me laugh. Certainly there are danger men but rugby is first and foremost a team game. Even the likes of Dan Carter would struggle to make an impact in a team of flids.
Which he is proving this season
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I'm not sold on the idea Itoje has got more hype in England than, say, Ardie Savea got last year in NZ... every country hypes up their players. NZ is at least as bad, if not worse, than anywhere else.
And I'd still bet my house on Itoje winning at least a couple of world player of the year awards before he is done. Tho' it looks like he'll be at 6 again this weekend, with Harrison at 7. Tom Woods is broken & Haskel apparently still not quite match fit.
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I'm not sold on the idea Itoje has got more hype in England than, say, Ardie Savea got last year in NZ... every country hypes up their players. NZ is at least as bad, if not worse, than anywhere else.
And I'd still bet my house on Itoje winning at least a couple of world player of the year awards before he is done. Tho' it looks like he'll be at 6 again this weekend, with Harrison at 7. Tom Woods is broken & Haskel apparently still not quite match fit.
@gollum said in Six Nations 2017:
I'm not sold on the idea Itoje has got more hype in England than, say, Ardie Savea got last year in NZ... every country hypes up their players. NZ is at least as bad, if not worse, than anywhere else.
And I'd still bet my house on Itoje winning at least a couple of world player of the year awards before he is done. Tho' it looks like he'll be at 6 again this weekend, with Harrison at 7. Tom Woods is broken & Haskel apparently still not quite match fit.
If that's the case Wales would be stupid not to focus on winning/spoiling the breakdowns. It would be an area of advantage for sure.
England are under pressure from themselves to play a more open style (especially after last week). Stop them getting any rhythm and it will be hard for them to play the way they want to. Then they'll have to either decide to just bash the game out or push passes. -
I'm not sold on the idea Itoje has got more hype in England than, say, Ardie Savea got last year in NZ... every country hypes up their players. NZ is at least as bad, if not worse, than anywhere else.
And I'd still bet my house on Itoje winning at least a couple of world player of the year awards before he is done. Tho' it looks like he'll be at 6 again this weekend, with Harrison at 7. Tom Woods is broken & Haskel apparently still not quite match fit.
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Harrison has been released with Clifford coming in and likely to start at 7 (unless they are bluffing about Haskell's match fitness. Still very makeshift, but Clifford is at least an upgrade on Harrison
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Kvesic's probably a little unlucky. Firstly for playing for an under-performing club side for so long and secondly for timing his quiet season form wise with one where there may have been an opportunity for him.
He certainly offers something different, but I don't think he's the kind of seven Jones has been that bothered about. Although interestingly he did name U20s eligible Will Evans in the EPS announced last summer who's a similar style of openside
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It is interesting that Eddie came in saying he wanted a little fetcher like George Smith or Hooper. Took a look at those guys & went "OK, I guess I'm going to pick a big smasher instead"" & went with Wood & Haskell.
Yep, either he changed his mind, or thought Kvesic wasn't up to it. Or more likely, a bit of both.
TBF there has been a lack of real test quality back rowers coming through (outside of Billy V) in recent years for England. Early days but I don't think Harrison or Clifford have really shown enough to indicate that they will have successful test careers and I'm not really counting Hughes as he's a pretty blatant poach.
The run up to 2019 will be interesting though as Haskell and Robshaw will be hard pressed to make it and there are a stack of real prospects coming through all around the same age (18 - 20) in Evans, Curry brothers, Mercer, Underhill etc. Would be surprised if at least a couple of them didn't force themselves into the conversation.
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Do'h. Clifford... yes thats slightly better. But not much.
Matt "the next England 7" Kvesic has really shit the bed to have fallen this far. On the plus side sounds like Falatau isn't fit
@gollum Successive England coaches have had a look at Kvesic and then decided he's not got it. Odd as he produces the goods time and again at club level and has never really been given the chance at International level. Whilst he seems to have been around forever as the coming man he is actually still only 24.
He's probably a bit on the small side in as much as England seem to think big is beautiful and I guess we would have to adopt a slightly different game plan to accommodate him, but I for one would like to see this tried.
Anyway, he's off to Exeter in the close season and it will be interesting to see what Rob Baxter can do with him.
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@gollum Successive England coaches have had a look at Kvesic and then decided he's not got it. Odd as he produces the goods time and again at club level and has never really been given the chance at International level. Whilst he seems to have been around forever as the coming man he is actually still only 24.
He's probably a bit on the small side in as much as England seem to think big is beautiful and I guess we would have to adopt a slightly different game plan to accommodate him, but I for one would like to see this tried.
Anyway, he's off to Exeter in the close season and it will be interesting to see what Rob Baxter can do with him.
@Catogrande said in Six Nations 2017:
@gollum Successive England coaches have had a look at Kvesic and then decided he's not got it. Odd as he produces the goods time and again at club level and has never really been given the chance at International level. Whilst he seems to have been around forever as the coming man he is actually still only 24.
He's probably a bit on the small side in as much as England seem to think big is beautiful and I guess we would have to adopt a slightly different game plan to accommodate him, but I for one would like to see this tried.
Anyway, he's off to Exeter in the close season and it will be interesting to see what Rob Baxter can do with him.
With the back row from the France game you could argue that it was possibly history repeating itself; after successfully deploying the behemoth 3x No.8 back row of Clarke, Rodber and Richards, little fetchers like Back couldn't get a look-in for yonks. One flaw in that theory would be that Kvesic is no Neil Back.y
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@Catogrande said in Six Nations 2017:
@gollum Successive England coaches have had a look at Kvesic and then decided he's not got it. Odd as he produces the goods time and again at club level and has never really been given the chance at International level. Whilst he seems to have been around forever as the coming man he is actually still only 24.
He's probably a bit on the small side in as much as England seem to think big is beautiful and I guess we would have to adopt a slightly different game plan to accommodate him, but I for one would like to see this tried.
Anyway, he's off to Exeter in the close season and it will be interesting to see what Rob Baxter can do with him.
With the back row from the France game you could argue that it was possibly history repeating itself; after successfully deploying the behemoth 3x No.8 back row of Clarke, Rodber and Richards, little fetchers like Back couldn't get a look-in for yonks. One flaw in that theory would be that Kvesic is no Neil Back.y
There was a quote way back from the 93 Lions tour from some ex All Black saying if only he had a pair of hands Ben Clarke would have been the worlds best loosie.. He was one of my most "how is this guy not amazing?" players.
He was also cited when Mike Brewer got drafted into an AB tour as the coach (Mains) was worried if he played Liam Barry, Ben Clarke would destroy him.
Tim Rodber would be an excellent lock in the modern game.
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There was a quote way back from the 93 Lions tour from some ex All Black saying if only he had a pair of hands Ben Clarke would have been the worlds best loosie.. He was one of my most "how is this guy not amazing?" players.
He was also cited when Mike Brewer got drafted into an AB tour as the coach (Mains) was worried if he played Liam Barry, Ben Clarke would destroy him.
Tim Rodber would be an excellent lock in the modern game.
@gollum He never came across as particularly bright, rugby bright I mean. He sort of reminded me of a cartoon I saw years ago relating to basketball. There was this huge great 8 feet tall guy holding the ball in one hand just above the net and the coach was saying "Now remember what I said? Now you let go".
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@gollum He never came across as particularly bright, rugby bright I mean. He sort of reminded me of a cartoon I saw years ago relating to basketball. There was this huge great 8 feet tall guy holding the ball in one hand just above the net and the coach was saying "Now remember what I said? Now you let go".
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@gollum He never came across as particularly bright, rugby bright I mean. He sort of reminded me of a cartoon I saw years ago relating to basketball. There was this huge great 8 feet tall guy holding the ball in one hand just above the net and the coach was saying "Now remember what I said? Now you let go".
@Catogrande said in Six Nations 2017:
@gollum He never came across as particularly bright, rugby bright I mean. He sort of reminded me of a cartoon I saw years ago relating to basketball. There was this huge great 8 feet tall guy holding the ball in one hand just above the net and the coach was saying "Now remember what I said? Now you let go".
No, not a rennaissance man, I think. I met him at the City 7s in 94? 95? Nice enough guy, I suppose, but never going to set the world a light with witty repartee and badinage. Then again, he was pretty much player of the '93 series, as I recall, and pocketed a stack of moolah when he moved from Bath to Richmond, and went on to become a money broker when he retired, so I doubt he cares a tinker's cuss for my opinion. Plus if I registered on his consciousness at all during the 7s it would have been as a speed bump for Steve Ojomoh. I suspect that with satellite technology you could probably still make out an imprint of my mangled body on the turf at The Old Deer Park, round about the halfway line...
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I always rated the back row of Richards, Winterbottom, and Teague/Skinner. Had a good balance to it, and Winterbottom wasn't the biggest open-side going around either
@Kiwidom Richard Hill was outstanding, the 'quiet achiever' of the RWC winning English side.
I was living in the UK around that period so got to see a lot more of him play, he was the rock of his teams.
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I always rated the back row of Richards, Winterbottom, and Teague/Skinner. Had a good balance to it, and Winterbottom wasn't the biggest open-side going around either
@Kiwidom If you look at the heralded English back rows you will invariably see balance. The Richards, Winterbottom, Teague era, the Hill, Back, Dallaglio era. But since then we have had a series of big munters. All good players in their own right, but where is the balance?
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Some interesting comments re: England here. It seems like there is conflicting schools of thought. Big is best, but they were outsized and outpowered on the weekend.
And expansive play, when they continuously kicked the ball away on the weekend. Like, over and over. Are they getting caught in two minds? Despite their very impressive 12 months (and it has been impressive) is there still a divide between Eddie's way and the England way?
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@Kiwidom If you look at the heralded English back rows you will invariably see balance. The Richards, Winterbottom, Teague era, the Hill, Back, Dallaglio era. But since then we have had a series of big munters. All good players in their own right, but where is the balance?
@Catogrande woked last June where you just threw weight at the breakdown, and the Wallabies could do fuck all about it
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Some interesting comments re: England here. It seems like there is conflicting schools of thought. Big is best, but they were outsized and outpowered on the weekend.
And expansive play, when they continuously kicked the ball away on the weekend. Like, over and over. Are they getting caught in two minds? Despite their very impressive 12 months (and it has been impressive) is there still a divide between Eddie's way and the England way?
@mariner4life take a while to get rid of the more natural instincts about how they play the game.
Even under Lancaster they looked like they wanted to play an expansive game, but when they struggled to execute so always fell back to the tried and tested.
