Americas Cup
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I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?
@No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:
I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?
Fuckers cheated.
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@canefan said in Americas Cup:
As someone else posted I reckon Ainslie was as big a factor if not more than any actual boat modification and the fact they worked out how to max out the handling of their boat as they went along
Apparenlty the gyroscope foiling system also started working last time around - that made a massive difference.
It's a huge amount to come back from though. There are also major limits to foil modification, etc that can be done. We're all nervous, but really based on the last two days you wouldn't expect anything except a rout next weekend.
@nzzp said in Americas Cup:
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
As someone else posted I reckon Ainslie was as big a factor if not more than any actual boat modification and the fact they worked out how to max out the handling of their boat as they went along
Apparenlty the gyroscope foiling system also started working last time around - that made a massive difference.
It's a huge amount to come back from though. There are also major limits to foil modification, etc that can be done. We're all nervous, but really based on the last two days you wouldn't expect anything except a rout next weekend.
How did they power that gyro again?..... Apparently everything on board these boats is powered by the grinders/cyclors. I am sure the stability when we turn is down to leg power over arm power
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Spithill had one thing right when he said today that they must find more boat speed.
ETNZ has put together a very innovative package - cyclors - daggerboards - foil controls all of which come with a variety of associated benefits. Cyclors definitely seem to have more in the tank than grinders. Kiwi's all sitting low in cockpits so less wind resistance - can see the course all the time rather than having to poke their heads up. More stable don't have to have someone adding their weight to the bow to give it some stability.
What we didn't have was time racing and time in Bermuda. The LV series gave us this and it shows. We look much more polished than we did in the round robin against Oracle.
However these boats are so freakishly fast that it looks like we hold a massive advantage A few minor improvements by Oracle and it could swing around quite easily. The counter to that is the Kiwi's seem to think they still have improvements in them.
We have already exceeded my expectations. I thought not making the AC would be a fail but didn't expect us to ever get a series lead
Fingers crossed
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11878929
There will be no massive changes to the boat according to Lester
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Spithill had one thing right when he said today that they must find more boat speed.
ETNZ has put together a very innovative package - cyclors - daggerboards - foil controls all of which come with a variety of associated benefits. Cyclors definitely seem to have more in the tank than grinders. Kiwi's all sitting low in cockpits so less wind resistance - can see the course all the time rather than having to poke their heads up. More stable don't have to have someone adding their weight to the bow to give it some stability.
What we didn't have was time racing and time in Bermuda. The LV series gave us this and it shows. We look much more polished than we did in the round robin against Oracle.
However these boats are so freakishly fast that it looks like we hold a massive advantage A few minor improvements by Oracle and it could swing around quite easily. The counter to that is the Kiwi's seem to think they still have improvements in them.
We have already exceeded my expectations. I thought not making the AC would be a fail but didn't expect us to ever get a series lead
Fingers crossed
@dogmeat yeah the aero-dynamics and wind resistance of the cyclers and Burling sitting lower is something I have heard mentioned a few times now, at this level, even if it is only 1 or 2 % better.
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Haha, the recording I d'd and watched just now stopped about 10 seconds before we got over the line....the American guy making the recording must have been pissed off and stopped it. Schadenfreude
Great sailing today, almost perfect around the course.
Yes, last time Oracle cheated. What will they do now? Let's see in 6 days. -
@No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:
I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?
Fuckers cheated.
@Virgil said in Americas Cup:
@No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:
I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?
Fuckers cheated.
Thanks for clarifying the technical details...
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I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?
@No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:
I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?
To elaborate on Virgil's succinct summation:
There are actually two schools of thought
The most common explanation here in NZ is that ETNZ were short of money so Oracle offered them some cash in return for an extra lay day, which Dalton gratefully accepted because ETNZ was seriously underfunded and no one could see any way back from 8-1.
Oracle then put 40 boatbuilders from the Warkworth company involved in the development of ETNZ's boat on a plane to SF where they worked solidly for 72 hours to improve the Oracle boat.
None of the above is contested by Oracle. The kiwi cheating argument is based around bribing the Warkworth crew to divulge ETNZ's IPThe OR counter-argument is that the two boats had similar speeds but ETNZ were sailing better and that the fundamental change to get them back into the game was the replacing of Kotsciezki as tactician by Ainslie which allowed OR to improve their sailing performance and hence take out the series and that all the cheating allegations are just sour grapes.
OR's position is actually pretty popular with neutrals mainly because unfortunately their an awful lot of Kiwi ferals out in the sailing blogosphere who have pretty shameful chips on their shoulders and who have already started with the triumphalism.
Personally I find OR's argument a little suspicious because while I think Ainslie did make a hell of a difference pre the break in racing OR's big issue was they couldn't consistently stay up on their foils but after it they had no issues. It is possible this was all to do with Ainslie and more experience foiling but hey why the Warkworth "traitors" then.
With hindsight I think there were two critical decisions - gifting OR the extra time to improve their boat and also covering their boat in the race that ran out of wind. If you recall we could have won the Cup but for a race in which we were minutes ahead being called off because it ran out of time. OR through in a series of tacks which we covered (which is match racing 101) however these tacks slowed the race down. What we should have done is trusted our boat speed, ignored OR and dragged for the line. All easy after the event huh.
Whatever it does make me nervous still about what rabbits OR can pull out of the hat in the next 5 days.
Or as Virg says - cheating fuckers
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Just like the other crews before them I noticed at one point the Oracle grinders looked poked, whereas out boys just kept keeping on
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
Just like the other crews before them I noticed at one point the Oracle grinders looked poked, whereas out boys just kept keeping on
The other point mentioned by the commentators was that the cyclors on TNZ have their hands free to do other tasks, e.g. Tuke. You have to be impressed with Joseph Sullivan's transition after the rowing debacle.
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@No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:
I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?
To elaborate on Virgil's succinct summation:
There are actually two schools of thought
The most common explanation here in NZ is that ETNZ were short of money so Oracle offered them some cash in return for an extra lay day, which Dalton gratefully accepted because ETNZ was seriously underfunded and no one could see any way back from 8-1.
Oracle then put 40 boatbuilders from the Warkworth company involved in the development of ETNZ's boat on a plane to SF where they worked solidly for 72 hours to improve the Oracle boat.
None of the above is contested by Oracle. The kiwi cheating argument is based around bribing the Warkworth crew to divulge ETNZ's IPThe OR counter-argument is that the two boats had similar speeds but ETNZ were sailing better and that the fundamental change to get them back into the game was the replacing of Kotsciezki as tactician by Ainslie which allowed OR to improve their sailing performance and hence take out the series and that all the cheating allegations are just sour grapes.
OR's position is actually pretty popular with neutrals mainly because unfortunately their an awful lot of Kiwi ferals out in the sailing blogosphere who have pretty shameful chips on their shoulders and who have already started with the triumphalism.
Personally I find OR's argument a little suspicious because while I think Ainslie did make a hell of a difference pre the break in racing OR's big issue was they couldn't consistently stay up on their foils but after it they had no issues. It is possible this was all to do with Ainslie and more experience foiling but hey why the Warkworth "traitors" then.
With hindsight I think there were two critical decisions - gifting OR the extra time to improve their boat and also covering their boat in the race that ran out of wind. If you recall we could have won the Cup but for a race in which we were minutes ahead being called off because it ran out of time. OR through in a series of tacks which we covered (which is match racing 101) however these tacks slowed the race down. What we should have done is trusted our boat speed, ignored OR and dragged for the line. All easy after the event huh.
Whatever it does make me nervous still about what rabbits OR can pull out of the hat in the next 5 days.
Or as Virg says - cheating fuckers
@dogmeat said in Americas Cup:
Oracle then put 40 boatbuilders from the Warkworth company involved in the development of ETNZ's boat on a plane to SF where they worked solidly for 72 hours to improve the Oracle boat.
Great post but a minor correction - the Oracle boat was built in Warkworth not ETNZ and they flew 5 traitors to San Fran. With both them and Ainslie...the rest is heartbreaking history. Although we could still say that we built the winning boat - I actually saw Larry's millions being launched in Sandspit.
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good post dogmeat.
My biggest fear is the fact Oracle have two boats and zero scruples.
What's to stop them on the last day ramming our boat, ostensibly accidentally, then bringing out their other boat? Burling needs to stay clear. Sometimes he's getting a little close.
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good post dogmeat.
My biggest fear is the fact Oracle have two boats and zero scruples.
What's to stop them on the last day ramming our boat, ostensibly accidentally, then bringing out their other boat? Burling needs to stay clear. Sometimes he's getting a little close.
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@canefan
I think so, but I was meaning some major damage.
Although, surely Oracle wouldn't put crew's safety at risk.... -
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
Just like the other crews before them I noticed at one point the Oracle grinders looked poked, whereas out boys just kept keeping on
The other point mentioned by the commentators was that the cyclors on TNZ have their hands free to do other tasks, e.g. Tuke. You have to be impressed with Joseph Sullivan's transition after the rowing debacle.
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Just watched the highlights. Burling was a boss in the starts, particularly when he rescued the start of the second race after losing power and position early. We totally outpaced OR in pure boatspeed and our crew work was superior too. It's not over yet, I'm nervous about the long break but we look good for the lead so far. As long as we continue to improve the boat and don't choke like dogs on the racecourse it's looking good. As one of the comms said, the fastest boat always wins the AC
