All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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@Crazy-Horse How much is a professional ref paid? I agree with off-escalope. Not having the courage to rule on straightforward decisions is a blight on the game
@dogmeat don't know how much refs are paid and not sure it is relevant. We have seen it in other sports, if the onus is on the official to decide what gets reviewed we see officials going upstairs more than people think they should. Tennis and cricket have it right in my opinion with the challange system. Umpires are not too scared to make a decision and the pressure is placed back on the players not to waste a review.
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While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
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While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
yep, this (i say, without irony given some of my posts in this thread). And it all starts with the game day commentators who pour over super slow-motion footage, often from angles the ref can't even see, and make disparaging comments (fuck you Marshall) about decision and call teams "hard done by".
And it snowballs from there.
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While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
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@barbarian Joubert hasn't been seen in big international matches because he chose to go ref in the 7s.
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Joubert copped it in the north too for his handling of the 2011 WC final , still see that brought up on social media even now from time to time ,
Ive watched it again and nothing stood out to me that he missed more than say the average game ,
there wasnt the big howler moment that Barnes had that you can put your finger on , so im a bit confused with that one ,
Im assuming they all watched a cheerleading commentary team that wanted France to win
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@Sapetyvi who knows, but the Olympics was a pretty big draw card for many more than just him.
@Bones I would bet it had. It was a fucking circus for a while there.
These kind of things just enforce the fact that people in groups are fucking moronic, even my mom who has only seen one half of rugby in her life knows you can't play the ball in an offside position, but suddenly these professional players are given a free pass when they don't know a simple law like that? Give me a fucking break.
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While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
@barbarian Totally disagree when it comes to Poite. He deserves whatever he is getting, not because he made the wrong call but because he changed his mind on a call once it had been made. No ref had ever done that before and this guy decides to ignore history and the rules of the game because he felt bad about the Lions losing on a technicality. SBW was rightfully criticised for his tackle and copped a four week ban, so why should Poite be let off for his incompetency?
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@barbarian Totally disagree when it comes to Poite. He deserves whatever he is getting, not because he made the wrong call but because he changed his mind on a call once it had been made. No ref had ever done that before and this guy decides to ignore history and the rules of the game because he felt bad about the Lions losing on a technicality. SBW was rightfully criticised for his tackle and copped a four week ban, so why should Poite be let off for his incompetency?
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@barbarian Totally disagree when it comes to Poite. He deserves whatever he is getting, not because he made the wrong call but because he changed his mind on a call once it had been made. No ref had ever done that before and this guy decides to ignore history and the rules of the game because he felt bad about the Lions losing on a technicality. SBW was rightfully criticised for his tackle and copped a four week ban, so why should Poite be let off for his incompetency?
'No ref had ever done that before' - that's just untrue. It happens all the time. I've seen multiple occasions where a referee has changed his decision after blowing the whistle. Often after something is shown on the big screen - like who feeds a scrum or lineout. What Poite did was rare but hardly unprecedented.
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@barbarian Totally disagree when it comes to Poite. He deserves whatever he is getting, not because he made the wrong call but because he changed his mind on a call once it had been made. No ref had ever done that before and this guy decides to ignore history and the rules of the game because he felt bad about the Lions losing on a technicality. SBW was rightfully criticised for his tackle and copped a four week ban, so why should Poite be let off for his incompetency?
'No ref had ever done that before' - that's just untrue. It happens all the time. I've seen multiple occasions where a referee has changed his decision after blowing the whistle. Often after something is shown on the big screen - like who feeds a scrum or lineout. What Poite did was rare but hardly unprecedented.
@barbarian Never for a penalty though unless foul play had been detected. He broke protocol, it's as simple as that.
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Refs, like players will never be immune to criticism (nor should they) the media however do have alot to answer for though, not just sports, they just stoke the fires from whichever 'side' they decide to take, often ignoring facts and without being professional about what they are supposed to be doing (case in point the 'Ritchity Grub' and the 'clown' as a couple of recent ones)
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While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
@barbarian True observations but the refs (and all authorities in the modern day) do have a "shield" to protect themselves.
And that's to follow the protocols and processes the lawmakers initiate
"Just following orders" is what most reasonable people attributed to the Joubert case.
But Poite (and Garces) dropped his shield and using a break in play to chat and change an onfield decision is squarely on them.
As mentioned above, that's not the process in rugby. You can't do that regardless of the fairness of the call.
It's the hidden figures behind WR refs and the lack of info coming out from them that adds to the discontent. Why not spend some time educating us stakeholders what the refs get up to. Doco type info on Training sessions, reviews, new law introductions etc would surely help soften the public perception.
Communicate with and inform the people who pay for this game
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While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
Absolutely bang on point.
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@Catogrande said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Bones Thanks
Edit: Bugger. The sarky comment I left earlier got lost. I meant to say Thanks. Mutter under breath, condescending bastard.
I disagree.
@Bones said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Catogrande said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Bones Thanks
Edit: Bugger. The sarky comment I left earlier got lost. I meant to say Thanks. Mutter under breath, condescending bastard.
I disagree.
A poor response. A better one would have been "Condescending? My dear Cato, how clever of you to notice".
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While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
While refs not making big calls may be a 'blight on the game', I'd argue it's because of a far bigger blight on the game - the carry on by media and fans after a ref gets it wrong. Craig Joubert is a prime example. He made a huge call in the 2015 QF, and while it was incorrect it was not a howler. The outcry from commentators, journalists and ex-players was frankly appalling. The bloke became a pariah and he hasn't been seen in big international matches since.
So now you see a risk averse approach in the big moments. After seeing what happened to Joubert, can you blame them?
Yes. I rank the treatment of Joubert in 2015 as the most depressing and disgusting of all the RWC 'ref-storms'. Because, as you say, it wasn't even a howler, and there was no recourse to change it. The carry on was pathetic.
However, I disagree with your point that ref's not making big calls is due to examples like Joubert '15. As the other major examples from the RWC which all pre-date 2015 RWC; Barnes 07, B Lawrence '11, and even Joubert '11 were examples of refs swallowing their whistle.
Poite managed to combine the two examples in a single decision/non-decision. But the stakes were much lower, so not that much of a shitstorm.
They are dammed if they do, damned if they don't.
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I haven't bothered reading back through the thread and basically ignored everything once the final whistle blew as I was on holiday and wanted to enjoy myself.
I have a question though. Poite's turn of phrase when he spoke to Read and Warburton after the muted conversation with Garces was odd. Could have just been his use of english but he says 'we have a deal....' in a tone that implies to me like he was reminded by Garces of something previously agreed.
When does a ref strike 'a deal'?
Was it a deal with the coaches pre series to not end a match on a debatable call? Not going by the second test. Was it a deal between the ref team after the second test to avoid a marginal deciding call? Strange that Poite, Peyper and Ayoub all forgot about it then.
Was it a deal just between Poite and Garces? What was the other side of the deal.
Forget all the rights and wrongs of what the players did for a moment. I find the strangest part of the whole thing to be the 'missing conversation' and the terminology used afterward.
Also comparisons to Joubert are probably what is keeping WR silent on the matter. They copped a lot of criticism for throwing the blame in his direction when he did nothing wrong. He made the correct call based on what he saw and was not able to use the TMO to notice the extra touch that put everyone onside.
In this case three of the team of four conferred and came to the same conclusion with the benefit of replays after a potential foul play check. A 'deal' was then struck with the worst placed official to change the decision. Just weird.
I'm sure the ABs asked for an explanation in the post match report but I doubt it will be made public by them. -
I just want refs to be able to call the clear and obvious, but it appears that offside is a difficult concept to grasp.
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I just want refs to be able to call the clear and obvious, but it appears that offside is a difficult concept to grasp.
@antipodean what is most surprising, is that Itoje isnt the most offside there!
I guess the AR couldnt see what was going on because the hooker was in the way.
