All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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Well if we do lose the 3rd test, at least the Saders are still on top of Super rugby
The key thing for me this week is how will our attack draw in more numbers. Lions were very effective in fanning out quickly and realigning the defensive line that there were very few gaps. When there were some opportunities, the Lions scrambled well but did give away penalties.
I know some are particularly beholden to the "must take the 3", but there was at least two occasions that I had hoped we kicked to the corner and maul from 5m out to create a try. That's not a criticism of taking kicks (Barrett exceeding my expectations on that front), but I am not averse to them trying what might seem risky but has been a pretty fruitful play for us.
Aaron Smith:
"They wanted to make it a struggle at the ruck, and we weren't able to be assertive with our carries. But we didn't help ourselves and we didn't attack where they weren't, and that's something we're going to fix this week. There was a lot more space than we thought. We've learned a lot from this game. There were opportunities there. Those opportunities will present themselves again this Saturday and we've got to be good enough to see them, and take them."
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I noticed Smith hardly ever box kicked after the rogue penalty on Retallick as a a pillar.
Went the traditional route with pass back to the 10 for clearing kicks.
I like that they were adaptable.
But I don't like clearing via the 10. Get so much more distance from the 9 usually. Would prefer better pillars.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I am 100% the sky is falling down and unfortunately for me I don’t have any chill pills. Here’s why.
• Despite NZ winning the first test and almost winning the second while being a man down, there was enough in those two games to suggest to me this Lions team is one of the best teams I have seen in NZ for a very long time. And the ABs have looked vulnerable in areas where they have been very good in the past.
• High balls. It started with Ben SMITH dropping ones he would normally take in Auckland and it continued with Dagg putting a few down in Wellington. Plus Dagg having to pretty much take them all Wellington because of our wing selections.
• Kick off reception and clearing. The Lions are doing a bloody good job here. They are getting the ball high and deep and their chase is nicely timed for when the ABs take the ball. We seem to be getting pinned down near our 22 after scoring, giving the Lions a chance to bite back. There was a good example of this on the weekend near the end of the game. The ABs had just kicked a penalty and the lions kicked off deep as usual. Cruden took the ball and hesitated to kick it for fear of the ball being charged. A ruck followed and the ball was cleared to an under pressure kicker (possibly Barrett) who only managed to clear it to around the 22. The Lions scored a try in the following phases. This has happened a lot the whole tour. The Lions have been able to keep in touch because they have pressured the NZ teams outstandingly well at restart time.
• Line outs. We are starting to see body language in the NZ lineout reminiscent of the bad old days. I know there are extenuating circumstances with the Lions yelling over our calls and sometimes setting up camp down the middle of the lineout, but shit we look nervous. Taylor is taking an age to throw the ball in and when that happens you know the lineout is under pressure. I haven’t seen the lineout stats and I am guessing they won’t look too bad, but fuck we are looking nervous in that area.
• Counter attack. Even in Auckland when we had a full quota of players the Lions looked more dangerous than us on the counter attack. And they were creating more chances to counter attack. It seems when they spill the ball they are either first to the loose ball or if an AB gets there first he is immediately set upon by a number of Lions meaning a shitty pass gets thrown or we end up in a ruck situation where fast ball is not coming. When the ABs spill the ball it seems like the Lions have very little trouble in moving the ball wide to have a go.
• Rush defence. This is a magnificent part of the Lions game. Maybe they are offside a lot of the time but they have been doing it all tour and NZ teams, apart from every now and then, have looked very ineffective against it. I find myself yelling at the TV that the bastards are offside but game in game out the refs have not pinged them for it. Why? Are the Lions in fact not offside but appear that way to us/me because they are outstanding at this facet of the game? Surely if they live offside Hansen would have brought this to the attention of the refs pre game, but nothing seems to have changed.
• AB midfield/backline. We got away with it last year but I think we are seeing that Nonu and Smith are not proving easy to replace. To borrow a basketball term, at this stage in their careers, apart from Barrett and Aaron Smith, the NZ backline seems to be made up of role players. There doesn’t seem to be anyone out wide (especially with the absence of Ben Smith) who seems capable of saying “Fuck this, give me the ball I am going to win this bloody game.” Nonu used to do it against the very best, so too Smith. Noone is doing it for the ABs currently. This is why, despite me being a big fan of Goodhue and I am picking him to be a long term AB, I would not pick him for this weekend. Even for the Crusaders he is a role player at the moment, a very, very good one, but I have yet to see him take a game by the scruff of the neck. I am not sure the ABs have anyone willing and able (apart from 9 and 10) to take a game by the scruff.All of the above is tempered by last weekend. Because the ABs were down to 14 we have no idea of the relative merits of the two teams. Despite the score line in Auckland I felt that game could have gone either way. I also feel that the Lions nearly self-destructed in Wellington rather than the ABs outplaying the Lions during the time we built a lead. It seemed to me when the Lions finally got their shit together they scored pretty easily. Was this because the ABs were tiring? Who knows and we won’t know until the weekend.
I am sure I have forgotten something to worry about and I am sure I will remember in the dead of night when I am trying to sleep. I need a hug and somebody to tell me everything is going to be Ok.
Exhibit A your honour.
@Rancid-Schnitzel he does raise some legitimate issues however
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
The Lions have basically been unaffected by injury, they will have a core test team who will be well up for this.
This has been key in the incremental development of the Lions squad, Test 23 and game plan.
Don't get me wrong, I thought we'd blown it last Saturday and was left relieved but underwhelmed by the margin of victory.
But going into the decider we have a largely unchanged 23 who are peaking fitness wise, are more comfortable with the game plan, who trust each other, and who have a greater sense of how they're running off the ball and combining.
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
The Lions have basically been unaffected by injury, they will have a core test team who will be well up for this.
This has been key in the incremental development of the Lions squad, Test 23 and game plan.
Don't get me wrong, I thought we'd blown it last Saturday and was left relieved but underwhelmed by the margin of victory.
But going into the decider we have a largely unchanged 23 who are peaking fitness wise, are more comfortable with the game plan, who trust each other, and who have a greater sense of how they're running off the ball and combining
Our losses have been gradual , so probably less fuss has been made of them . But if a few months ago we knew we would be going into a decider without , Coles , b smith , sbw and crotty , we might be getting a little nervous .
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@Rancid-Schnitzel he does raise some legitimate issues however
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rancid-Schnitzel he does raise some legitimate issues however
Most of it was knee-jerk hysteria though. Like I said, it reminds me of the RWC.
Of course the abs have deficiencies and are always beatable on a given day, but you could just as easily write a 50,000 word essay lamenting why the Lions very nearly lost to 14 men.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rancid-Schnitzel he does raise some legitimate issues however
Most of it was knee-jerk hysteria though. Like I said, it reminds me of the RWC.
Of course the abs have deficiencies and are always beatable on a given day, but you could just as easily write a 50,000 word essay lamenting why the Lions very nearly lost to 14 men.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Of course the abs have deficiencies and are always beatable on a given day, but you could just as easily write a 50,000 word essay lamenting why the Lions very nearly lost to 14 men.
I keep thinking of the counterfactual - how much damage would we do to the sport if we were able to beat the cream of the NH with 14 men. FFS, that's ridiculous - we shouldn't have been within 20 points of them. It's like we're playing on easy mode some days ... to lead with 5 to go was remarkable.
It's going to be huge this weekend. Like the first two test matches, if the ABs play to their potential, they win. We crushed them up front in Test 1 - being up by 30-8 with a couple of minutes to go is dominance. It's going to take a lot to beat this AB side, and some of that groundwork is already laid:
- Smith, Coles, SBW goooone
- French ref
- Wet weather
- Virtually an away game with visiting support
stuff it, I'll get our excuses in early. If we don't lose by less than 10 it's a victory, right?
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@Rocky-Rockbottom said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
There really are some incredibly negative people in the AB fan base.
We're born in blood and pain and we die alone.
And apparently are miserable for all the years in between......
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As has been mentioned in the media over the last few days, I am expecting the ABs to bounce back like they did in Dublin last year after the loss in Chicago. That doesn't mean it will be easy but BBBR's comments yesterday reiterate that the players themselves know what is required to give themselves the best chance to win.
Even though we AB fans don't like losing, the Lions win in Wellington was exactly what the series needed. These games are called tests for a reason and everything is on the line in Auckland for the players and coaches. For those of us lucky enough to be at Eden Park, these are the games to look forward to.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
As has been mentioned in the media over the last few days, I am expecting the ABs to bounce back like they did in Dublin last year after the loss in Chicago. That doesn't mean it will be easy but BBBR's comments yesterday reiterate that the players themselves know what is required to give themselves the best chance to win.
These bounce-back scenarios are pretty fascinating. For me it's about the balance between confidence vs fear of losing and how that changes between matches.
Going into Match1 you sensed the All Blacks were a bit more fearful with a relatively unknown opponent while the Lions were pretty confident on the basis of good wins against Maori and Crusaders, who they wrongly perceived as being pretty close to the All Blacks level.
The Lions then went into Match 2 with the balance heavily towards fear of losing and the All Blacks, although they'll deny it forever, were carrying too much confidence from their previous effort. For Match 3 the All Blacks will be back in the fear zone in a big way and if they can channel that into focus and not jitters, they'll win.
Amateurish pop psychology aside, I hope they select a Fekitoa - Lienert Brown midfield and leave the rest unchanged.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
As has been mentioned in the media over the last few days, I am expecting the ABs to bounce back like they did in Dublin last year after the loss in Chicago. That doesn't mean it will be easy but BBBR's comments yesterday reiterate that the players themselves know what is required to give themselves the best chance to win.
These bounce-back scenarios are pretty fascinating. For me it's about the balance between confidence vs fear of losing and how that changes between matches.
Going into Match1 you sensed the All Blacks were a bit more fearful with a relatively unknown opponent while the Lions were pretty confident on the basis of good wins against Maori and Crusaders, who they wrongly perceived as being pretty close to the All Blacks level.
The Lions then went into Match 2 with the balance heavily towards fear of losing and the All Blacks, although they'll deny it forever, were carrying too much confidence from their previous effort. For Match 3 the All Blacks will be back in the fear zone in a big way and if they can channel that into focus and not jitters, they'll win.
Amateurish pop psychology aside, I hope they select a Fekitoa - Lienert Brown midfield and leave the rest unchanged.
@Marty said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
The Lions then went into Match 2 with the balance heavily towards fear of losing and the All Blacks, although they'll deny it forever, were carrying too much confidence from their previous effort. For Match 3 the All Blacks will be back in the fear zone in a big way and if they can channel that into focus and not jitters, they'll win.
Couldn't disagree more.
Match 2 I reckon we were playing our full 80 game. We don't often tear into things at the front end, so that we can finish over the top of teams in the last quarter. Until the Red Card on Saturday night, I had no fear that we would lose if we played close to our potential. On the other hand, I could see the intensity from the Lions being hard to maintain through the game.
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There really are some incredibly negative people in the AB fan base.
@Baron-Silas-Greenback I aren't seeing anyone being incredibly negative. I do see people expressing concerns over the possible outcome and AB shortcomings. Is that not allowed?
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@Marty said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
The Lions then went into Match 2 with the balance heavily towards fear of losing and the All Blacks, although they'll deny it forever, were carrying too much confidence from their previous effort. For Match 3 the All Blacks will be back in the fear zone in a big way and if they can channel that into focus and not jitters, they'll win.
Couldn't disagree more.
Match 2 I reckon we were playing our full 80 game. We don't often tear into things at the front end, so that we can finish over the top of teams in the last quarter. Until the Red Card on Saturday night, I had no fear that we would lose if we played close to our potential. On the other hand, I could see the intensity from the Lions being hard to maintain through the game.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback I aren't seeing anyone being incredibly negative. I do see people expressing concerns over the possible outcome and AB shortcomings. Is that not allowed?
@Crazy-Horse no
we don't have shortcomings, just cheating dirty opposition and incompetent refs, sheesh, where the hell you been all these years?@Marty yeah will be interesting, with it all on the line will the Lions go to a more conservative game plan and try and shut us down up front?
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https://twitter.com/Hurricanesrugby/status/882676681537748993
- Joe Moody (27)
- Codie Taylor (18)
- Owen Franks (93)
- Brodie Retallick (63)
- Samuel Whitelock (87)
- Jerome Kaino (80)
- Sam Cane (43)
- Kieran Read (99) - Captain
- Aaron Smith (61)
- Beauden Barrett (52)
- Julian Savea (53)
- Ngani Laumape (1)
- Anton Lienert-Brown (12)
- Israel Dagg (64)
- Jordie Barrett (1)
Reserves:
16. Nathan Harris (7)
17. Wyatt Crockett (61)
18. Charlie Faumuina (49)
19. Scott Barrett (7)
20. Ardie Savea (15)
21. TJ Perenara (32)
22. Aaron Cruden (49)
23. Malakai Fekitoa (23)
Lions
- Mako Vunipola
- Jamie George
- Tadhg Furlong
- Maro Itoje
- Alun Wyn Jones
- Sam Warburton (captain)
- Sean O'Brien
- Taulupe Faletau
- Conor Murray
- Johnny Sexton
- Elliot Daly
- Owen Farrell
- Jonathan Davies
- Anthony Watson
- Liam Williams.
Resserves:
16. Ken Owens
17. Jack McGrath
18. Kyle Sinckler
19. Courtney Lawes
20. CJ Stander
21. Rhys Webb
22. Ben Te'o
23. Jack Nowell
(booboos original post follows)
Flush the dunny.
ABs will be forced into more changes in the backs anyway.
Forwards should stay the same. And forwards bench unlikely to change.
Backs well ...
We'll be without Bender and SBW, probably Naholo and maybe Crotty still.
If Crotty is close to better they'll bring him in, but assuming he's not, and assuming all foyr as above are out what's your plan?
For me, given hiw Laumape went I'm starting him at 12.
Can Rieko play 14 (With Jules to 11)? I'm thinking of leaving him at 11 though and moving Izzy back to 14, with JB to 15.
Would give serious consideration to JB kicking.
Would need to find a new benchie. Does Julianuary offer enough cover from the bench? Would mean Rieko or maybe JB covering midfield.
Next in line appears to be Goodhue. Dmac could have a claim at that given both are injury replacements. Or have I forgotten someone?
As for the Lions I'd suggest lawes to start ... but am not really fussed about them. They'll be strong regardless.
Once again it will be as absolute war. If it's 15 on 15 for me is a 50:50 prospect.
It was funny watching yesterday as usually you have this feeling that the ABs just need to get some possession and they'll start to roll over the top. Just didn't get that impression yesterday. Although that may have been due to the numerical disadvantage.
Poite is likely to be weird but less weird than Garces. Of the two am pleased that he and not the other is reffing the decider. I'd prefer just about anyone else but is the lesser of the two evils.
We'll be interesting. Lions playing good rugby to come back into that game and deserve massive credit. I still think Warren G is a massive dick and hope he loses.
And hope the good guys win and send the chippy Pom Islanders home with their tails between their legs.
@booboo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I still think Warren G is a massive dick and hope he loses.
Is there the option for the Lions to win but Gatland to lose?
Maybe a French-style RWC2011 revolt when they ignored the lunatic Livremont?There are many things this tour that Gatland has done this tour that have annoyed me - his digs in the press conferences, not trying the Sexton-Farell partnership earlier in the tour, his drafting in of the "plastic Lions", in the last midweek game making 7 of the pack play 80 minutes to the point of exhaustion and demoralise them about not then having no hope of getting into the test team.
That said, he has seemed to create a good atmosphere among the players and has supported the early trips to schools etc. On a rugby front he has been willing to abandon his preferred approach of bulky-12 smashing the ball up for a 1m gain and somehow the team have become at times quite fluid.
If I had the choice I'd have Hansen as a coach - he has been more respectful of the opposition and the officials, he has set the tone for a good culture within the team and good results/style on the pitch. He has a good mix of analysis, pragmatism, proportion, humility and humour in what he says in the press conferences.
I hope that when/if the ABs lose on Saturday, Hansen is not the scapegoat.
The ABs have had significant disruption in both tests - it is normally the touring team who are running out of first-line players by the third test. Maybe the good fortune of the Lions with injuries has had more of an impact than has been suggested so far? -
If there is a comforting thing , returning to Eden Park for a decider , gives us a feeling of , been there done that , its business as usual
@kiwiinmelb Last time Eden Park was a decider was 2015 Bledisloe, in that ABs team were Carter, McCaw, Nonu, Conrad, Coles, Woodcock, Ben Smith, Nehe Milner Skudder.
Just slightly different to the team that will run out on Saturday!
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@kiwiinmelb Last time Eden Park was a decider was 2015 Bledisloe, in that ABs team were Carter, McCaw, Nonu, Conrad, Coles, Woodcock, Ben Smith, Nehe Milner Skudder.
Just slightly different to the team that will run out on Saturday!
@KiwiMurph but also followed a loss the week prior....
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@kiwiinmelb Last time Eden Park was a decider was 2015 Bledisloe, in that ABs team were Carter, McCaw, Nonu, Conrad, Coles, Woodcock, Ben Smith, Nehe Milner Skudder.
Just slightly different to the team that will run out on Saturday!
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@kiwiinmelb Last time Eden Park was a decider was 2015 Bledisloe, in that ABs team were Carter, McCaw, Nonu, Conrad, Coles, Woodcock, Ben Smith, Nehe Milner Skudder.
Just slightly different to the team that will run out on Saturday!
yeah I guess it was a different side ,
At least the coaching staff and a few of the players were still involved ,
And the supporters
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I see Treason is having a field day, couple of headlines I saw (obviously didn't click) apparently it was hubris to play our Super rugby rookies against the Lions and also our razzle has gone wrong....
and the little bit I can read without clicking on it...
OPINION: The Lions have so far seen absolutely nothing to fear, writes Mark Reason.
How is it that hacks such as him can get paid for their BS?
then there is this guy:
