'Super Rugby' 2021
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@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@chris said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Looking more like a 3rd Rd of SR Aotearoa.I wouldn't have minded a different comp to freshen things up,But not unhappy with a 3rd Rd of a great comp.
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Not sure what the answer is to that beyond the other teams upping their games.
The Crusaders were were winning even with the SA and Australian teams involved.
As I mentioned before Auckland were murdering teams by 30 to 50 points and holding onto to the Ranfurly Shield for years on end.in the 1980s
Canterbury were getting thrashed by 50 every time.
A few people within Canterbury decided they had to restructure and go up levels to meet Auckland the crusaders were born out of those times
Deans,Smith etc were in the for front of that.
Even the Crusaders were dead last the first year of SR@chris i think the one thing missing from that point is that NPC team, especially when amateur, were a rep team. Literally a representation of the players in the region. how good the players in that region were were influenced by all kinds of other things like the players actual job, or like Otago with a team full of young blokes come down for uni. And so there were more natural ebs and flows as player moved for reasons other than rugby
now we're talking about super professional teams/players where success will propagate success as players want to move to the winning team so they get seen
the success/dominance of the crusaders is different to those we saw in the amateur days or even the NPC
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@chris i think the one thing missing from that point is that NPC team, especially when amateur, were a rep team. Literally a representation of the players in the region. how good the players in that region were were influenced by all kinds of other things like the players actual job, or like Otago with a team full of young blokes come down for uni. And so there were more natural ebs and flows as player moved for reasons other than rugby
now we're talking about super professional teams/players where success will propagate success as players want to move to the winning team so they get seen
the success/dominance of the crusaders is different to those we saw in the amateur days or even the NPC
@kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@chris i think the one thing missing from that point is that NPC team, especially when amateur, were a rep team. Literally a representation of the players in the region. how good the players in that region were were influenced by all kinds of other things like the players actual job, or like Otago with a team full of young blokes come down for uni. And so there were more natural ebs and flows as player moved for reasons other than rugby
now we're talking about super professional teams/players where success will propagate success as players want to move to the winning team so they get seen
the success/dominance of the crusaders is different to those we saw in the amateur days or even the NPC
Not really players haven’t moved to the crusaders for a few years it’s developed from within the Academy
Other teams have more money more resources than back then it’s how you use and develop those things make you a top side
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@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@chris said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Looking more like a 3rd Rd of SR Aotearoa.I wouldn't have minded a different comp to freshen things up,But not unhappy with a 3rd Rd of a great comp.
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Not sure what the answer is to that beyond the other teams upping their games.
The Crusaders were were winning even with the SA and Australian teams involved.
As I mentioned before Auckland were murdering teams by 30 to 50 points and holding onto to the Ranfurly Shield for years on end.in the 1980s
Canterbury were getting thrashed by 50 every time.
A few people within Canterbury decided they had to restructure and go up levels to meet Auckland the crusaders were born out of those times
Deans,Smith etc were in the for front of that.
Even the Crusaders were dead last the first year of SR -
A rotation of refs this week. Someone can add when the match threads are created.
Crusaders v Chiefs
Saturday 13 March, 7:05pm
Orangetheory Stadium, Christchurch
Referee: James Doleman
Assistant 1: Brendon Pickerill
Assistant 2: Ben O’Keeffe
TMO: Paul WilliamsBlues v Highlanders
Sunday 14 March, 3:35pm
Eden Park, Auckland
Referee: Mike Fraser
Assistant 1: Brendon Pickerill
Assistant 2: Ben O’Keeffe
TMO: Paul Williams -
@chris in the final Crusaders are 3/4 against other NZ opposition (Blues pinched one early) but only 4/7 against Aus opposition (one each against Reds, Brumbies and Waratahs). 3/3 against the rest.
Bit of variety never hurts.
@derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@chris in the final Crusaders are 3/4 against other NZ opposition (Blues pinched one early) but only 4/7 against Aus opposition (one each against Reds, Brumbies and Waratahs). 3/3 against the rest.
Bit of variety never hurts.
I am all for variety
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@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@chris said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Looking more like a 3rd Rd of SR Aotearoa.I wouldn't have minded a different comp to freshen things up,But not unhappy with a 3rd Rd of a great comp.
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Not sure what the answer is to that beyond the other teams upping their games.
The Crusaders were were winning even with the SA and Australian teams involved.
As I mentioned before Auckland were murdering teams by 30 to 50 points and holding onto to the Ranfurly Shield for years on end.in the 1980s
Canterbury were getting thrashed by 50 every time.
A few people within Canterbury decided they had to restructure and go up levels to meet Auckland the crusaders were born out of those times
Deans,Smith etc were in the for front of that.
Even the Crusaders were dead last the first year of SRAgreed (we've talked about this before). My point is that three rounds of the Crusaders winning everything won't make the product as viable. Their dominance gets far less important when there are 12 teams, as the other NZ teams look much better than (in reality) they are vis-a-vis the Sader machine, and there are usually other teams who've been strong within their countries.
Round one: Super rugby Aotearoa
Round two: Super Rugby Australasia (NZ/OZ) as crossover games
Round three: Super Rugby Asia (NZ/OZ/Japan) in 3 pools of five teams?(edit: 3 pools, Cup, plate, bowl)
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Agreed (we've talked about this before). My point is that three rounds of the Crusaders winning everything won't make the product as viable. Their dominance gets far less important when there are 12 teams, as the other NZ teams look much better than (in reality) they are vis-a-vis the Sader machine, and there are usually other teams who've been strong within their countries.
Round one: Super rugby Aotearoa
Round two: Super Rugby Australasia (NZ/OZ) as crossover games
Round three: Super Rugby Asia (NZ/OZ/Japan) in 3 pools of five teams?(edit: 3 pools, Cup, plate, bowl)
@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Agreed (we've talked about this before). My point is that three rounds of the Crusaders winning everything won't make the product as viable. Their dominance gets far less important when there are 12 teams, as the other NZ teams look much better than (in reality) they are vis-a-vis the Sader machine, and there are usually other teams who've been strong within their countries.
Round one: Super rugby Aotearoa
Round two: Super Rugby Australasia (NZ/OZ) as crossover games
Round three: Super Rugby Asia (NZ/OZ/Japan) in 4 pools of five teams?No argument. from me there, the 3 Rds you have mapped out would be great.
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@chris said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Looking more like a 3rd Rd of SR Aotearoa.I wouldn't have minded a different comp to freshen things up,But not unhappy with a 3rd Rd of a great comp.
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Forget about the competitiveness for a second. 3 rounds raises other questions
The lack of variety will become an issue. Four opponents is not enough to maintain interest.
The attrition problem will get worse. The games are still extremely physical even if they blow out at the end.
There was a window last year when NZR could’ve done something more radical. I suspect the window has closed. I would have liked a single competition with more teams than 5 but less teams than 14 to replace both SR & NPC
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@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Forget about the competitiveness for a second. 3 rounds raises other questions
The lack of variety will become an issue. Four opponents is not enough to maintain interest.
The attrition problem will get worse. The games are still extremely physical even if they blow out at the end.
There was a window last year when NZR could’ve done something more radical. I suspect the window has closed. I would have liked a single competition with more teams than 5 but less teams than 14 to replace both SR & NPC
@duluth said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Forget about the competitiveness for a second. 3 rounds raises other questions
The lack of variety will become an issue. Four opponents is not enough to maintain interest.
The attrition problem will get worse. The games are still extremely physical even if they blow out at the end.
There was a window last year when NZR couldn't done something more radical. I suspect the window has closed. I would have liked a single competition with more teams than 5 but less teams than 14 to replace both SR & NPC
Absolutely. I agree with the idea that the opportunity for radical change seems to have been missed too.
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@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Forget about the competitiveness for a second. 3 rounds raises other questions
The lack of variety will become an issue. Four opponents is not enough to maintain interest.
The attrition problem will get worse. The games are still extremely physical even if they blow out at the end.
There was a window last year when NZR could’ve done something more radical. I suspect the window has closed. I would have liked a single competition with more teams than 5 but less teams than 14 to replace both SR & NPC
@duluth It won't surprise you that I don't want anything to replace the NPC. To me, that's still the most interesting competition and the feeder competition to the next level, whatever that's going to look like. The step from club/school rugby to any form of Super Rugby is too big IMO.
For a SR+Japanese clubs competition, I think something like a 2-conference format with an Japanese conference and a Trans- Ta$man Pasifika conference, followed by play-offs between an x-number of highest ranked teams of each conference, culminating in a final, seems - logistically - the most feasible format. With "x" being the number of teams that allows the organisers to fit in a certain number of games in a playing window that is acceptable from a player welfare point of view and leaves enough time in-between this competition and the start of NPC. I think that also comes closest to the proposed new comp in Japan from 2022.
That World Club Competition is still on the cards, too. No idea about what time of the year that is to be played, though.
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@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
If the Saders win the third round at a canter, I think there will discussions about the viability of the product. I hope that the Blues can get an upset over them and at least keep it close, so that there is still interest in the format by that time.
Forget about the competitiveness for a second. 3 rounds raises other questions
The lack of variety will become an issue. Four opponents is not enough to maintain interest.
The attrition problem will get worse. The games are still extremely physical even if they blow out at the end.
There was a window last year when NZR could’ve done something more radical. I suspect the window has closed. I would have liked a single competition with more teams than 5 but less teams than 14 to replace both SR & NPC
@duluth although players do get a week off every month when they get a bye, which is the only consolation of this format, but agree completely on the lack of variety will being a huge issue, I mean looking at the results from the last week, lets say in another 6-8 weeks what would the bums on seats be like for a Chiefs v Hurricanes game in Hamilton, even eyeballs on the TV?
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@duluth although players do get a week off every month when they get a bye, which is the only consolation of this format, but agree completely on the lack of variety will being a huge issue, I mean looking at the results from the last week, lets say in another 6-8 weeks what would the bums on seats be like for a Chiefs v Hurricanes game in Hamilton, even eyeballs on the TV?
@taniwharugby in another month I may be watching - I watched the cricket both times in preference (men Friday, women Sunday). I love me some rugby, but it's so early in the year. If we can't get internationals, it'll look worryingly like losing interest unfortunately.
NFL starts in September, so hanging on for that
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@duluth It won't surprise you that I don't want anything to replace the NPC. To me, that's still the most interesting competition and the feeder competition to the next level, whatever that's going to look like. The step from club/school rugby to any form of Super Rugby is too big IMO.
For a SR+Japanese clubs competition, I think something like a 2-conference format with an Japanese conference and a Trans- Ta$man Pasifika conference, followed by play-offs between an x-number of highest ranked teams of each conference, culminating in a final, seems - logistically - the most feasible format. With "x" being the number of teams that allows the organisers to fit in a certain number of games in a playing window that is acceptable from a player welfare point of view and leaves enough time in-between this competition and the start of NPC. I think that also comes closest to the proposed new comp in Japan from 2022.
That World Club Competition is still on the cards, too. No idea about what time of the year that is to be played, though.
@stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@duluth It won't surprise you that I don't want anything to replace the NPC. To me, that's still the most interesting competition and the feeder competition to the next level, whatever that's going to look like. The step from club/school rugby to any form of Super Rugby is too big IMO.
That's at odds with the modern practice of school -> academy -> SR.
NPC is relegated to second chance saloon.
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You would need to have a full SR Development competition or U20 competition to bridge any gap between 1st XV and SR. Academies would only cater for the latter competition as they are usually for the 18-21 yr old players who usually develop via the provincial age-group teams (e.g. U19s) before being promoted to being full-time professionals.
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You would need to have a full SR Development competition or U20 competition to bridge any gap between 1st XV and SR. Academies would only cater for the latter competition as they are usually for the 18-21 yr old players who usually develop via the provincial age-group teams (e.g. U19s) before being promoted to being full-time professionals.
@bovidae said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
You would need to have a full SR Development competition or U20 competition to bridge any gap between 1st XV and SR. Academies would only cater for the latter competition as they are usually for the 18-21 yr old players who usually develop via the provincial age-group teams (e.g. U19s) before being promoted to being full-time professionals.
That's straight from a SR coach's mouth.
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You would need to have a full SR Development competition or U20 competition to bridge any gap between 1st XV and SR. Academies would only cater for the latter competition as they are usually for the 18-21 yr old players who usually develop via the provincial age-group teams (e.g. U19s) before being promoted to being full-time professionals.
@bovidae said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
You would need to have a full SR Development competition or U20 competition to bridge any gap between 1st XV and SR. Academies would only cater for the latter competition as they are usually for the 18-21 yr old players who usually develop via the provincial age-group teams (e.g. U19s) before being promoted to being full-time professionals.
an if you did that i think you'd need a draft of those development players to stop teams stock piling the youth, develop as many as you like but you can only protect so many and the rest are up for grabs in the draft
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@bovidae said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
You would need to have a full SR Development competition or U20 competition to bridge any gap between 1st XV and SR. Academies would only cater for the latter competition as they are usually for the 18-21 yr old players who usually develop via the provincial age-group teams (e.g. U19s) before being promoted to being full-time professionals.
an if you did that i think you'd need a draft of those development players to stop teams stock piling the youth, develop as many as you like but you can only protect so many and the rest are up for grabs in the draft
@kiwiwomble problem is, there isnt enough money in the sport at that level to make a draft workable.
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@kiwiwomble problem is, there isnt enough money in the sport at that level to make a draft workable.
@taniwharugby do you mean bidding wars for players? i thought drafts were a way around big money, bottom teams get first choice to rookies kind of deal
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@taniwharugby do you mean bidding wars for players? i thought drafts were a way around big money, bottom teams get first choice to rookies kind of deal
@kiwiwomble so how do these kids, cos thats who most of those drafted will be, live in this new location, if on a dev contract which is likely to be <$30,000 a year (basic NPC contracts are <$15,000) so am just guessing.
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I'm not sure a draft would work in NZ rugby.
The issue is forcing people to move to a region they may not want to (away from family etc). The easier option would be to limit how many players you can have in your academy from outside your region to encourage franchises to identify and develop local talent. Obviously that would hugely benefit the Blues and disadvantage the Highlanders based on population. So no easy solution.
