Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11
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@Kirwan said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@westcoastie said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@Crazy-Horse Aaron Smith does have a habit of trying to do too much, when his first role should be give the ball to the 10. He box-kicked heaps from our 22 when I would've preferred he give it to RM. Maybe Nugget is the issue?
Maybe Smith wasn’t liking RMs option taking?
Who knows, but for much of the game it looked like RM didn't get much of a chance to make decisions because we didn't have the damn ball.
@Crazy-Horse said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@Kirwan said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@westcoastie said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@Crazy-Horse Aaron Smith does have a habit of trying to do too much, when his first role should be give the ball to the 10. He box-kicked heaps from our 22 when I would've preferred he give it to RM. Maybe Nugget is the issue?
Maybe Smith wasn’t liking RMs option taking?
Who knows, but for much of the game it looked like RM didn't get much of a chance to make decisions because we didn't have the damn ball.
And when we did he froze completely
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I guess the question is do you give the starting players an opportunity at
ASB StadiumEden Park or dump them? The problem with either approach is players may freeze worrying that a mistake may cost them selection for the next match.Personally I'd prefer the selection meeting focused on getting the best XV to start with by focusing on position rather than shoehorning the best XV players onto the field.
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@No-Quarter said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@chimoaus said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
It appears coaches think if a player is world class in their main position, they can easily transfer those skills to another position. But is it that easy? We always consider 2, 9, and 10 to be specialist but could you not argue that 1-15 are all specialist spots that take many many hours of game time to learn and master? Why do we think we can simply change a player at test level and expect it to work?
Experts in any field are experts because they don't think about why they do something; they just do it instinctively. How long does it take a player to become a specialist?
I wonder in the case of Savea, is he worse off for having to play all 3 positions instead of becoming an expert at 1?
I agree, shuffling players around is almost always detrimental to their development. We've seen it so many times before and there's little doubt it has hindered the likes of Jordie and DMac really finding their feet at test level.
Jordie has played plenty of 15 now and has come of age in that position. He either plays 15 or he doesn't start.
Same for Savea at 7. Same for Goodhue at 13.
I also think it's too soon for Rieko as a centre. He needs more time to learn the craft. We know he's electric on attack but that's only one aspect of playing centre. He has the potential to be world class in that position but it's going to take some time.
Rodders is one of my favourite ABs and when he made the 2002 EOYT and got one start (Wales?) I was stoked for him. But then he makes the starting side for the winter test against England and the test we prefer not to remember I thought okay he’s young, but for a starting AB no.8 he will need to get better and quickly or the pressure and noise on him and the AB coaches would be fever pitch.
Rodders played as a flanker for Wellington. He had excellent speed from being a quality 7s player and getting off the mark quickly.
He got some limited opportunities thereafter but it wasn’t until 05 BIL series that Henry had confidence that this is our guy and we will back him in for the long haul and the rest is history.
Some players have more conventional paths along their AB career, but others less so. I doubt Kahui ever thought he would be playing as a starting winger for an AB RWC campaign.
@ACT-Crusader said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@No-Quarter said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@chimoaus said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
It appears coaches think if a player is world class in their main position, they can easily transfer those skills to another position. But is it that easy? We always consider 2, 9, and 10 to be specialist but could you not argue that 1-15 are all specialist spots that take many many hours of game time to learn and master? Why do we think we can simply change a player at test level and expect it to work?
Experts in any field are experts because they don't think about why they do something; they just do it instinctively. How long does it take a player to become a specialist?
I wonder in the case of Savea, is he worse off for having to play all 3 positions instead of becoming an expert at 1?
I agree, shuffling players around is almost always detrimental to their development. We've seen it so many times before and there's little doubt it has hindered the likes of Jordie and DMac really finding their feet at test level.
Jordie has played plenty of 15 now and has come of age in that position. He either plays 15 or he doesn't start.
Same for Savea at 7. Same for Goodhue at 13.
I also think it's too soon for Rieko as a centre. He needs more time to learn the craft. We know he's electric on attack but that's only one aspect of playing centre. He has the potential to be world class in that position but it's going to take some time.
Rodders is one of my favourite ABs and when he made the 2002 EOYT and got one start (Wales?) I was stoked for him. But then he makes the starting side for the winter test against England and the test we prefer not to remember I thought okay he’s young, but for a starting AB no.8 he will need to get better and quickly or the pressure and noise on him and the AB coaches would be fever pitch.
Rodders played as a flanker for Wellington. He had excellent speed from being a quality 7s player and getting off the mark quickly.
He got some limited opportunities thereafter but it wasn’t until 05 BIL series that Henry had confidence that this is our guy and we will back him in for the long haul and the rest is history.
Some players have more conventional paths along their AB career, but others less so. I doubt Kahui ever thought he would be playing as a starting winger for an AB RWC campaign.
But they played Rodders at 8 consistently, and it did take him quite a while to find his feet in that position despite his talents. That kind of proves my point, you can't keep switching players positions around and expect them to excel, especially at test level.
Kahui was an OK winger and very much just a "safe"option for us then. The main reason he never settled in one position at test level was he was injured 99% of the time.
One player that immediately made it work was Mils. Picked on his form at 13 and ethen excelled at 15. But again he played basically nothing but 15 from then onwards.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@No-Quarter said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@chimoaus said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
It appears coaches think if a player is world class in their main position, they can easily transfer those skills to another position. But is it that easy? We always consider 2, 9, and 10 to be specialist but could you not argue that 1-15 are all specialist spots that take many many hours of game time to learn and master? Why do we think we can simply change a player at test level and expect it to work?
Experts in any field are experts because they don't think about why they do something; they just do it instinctively. How long does it take a player to become a specialist?
I wonder in the case of Savea, is he worse off for having to play all 3 positions instead of becoming an expert at 1?
I agree, shuffling players around is almost always detrimental to their development. We've seen it so many times before and there's little doubt it has hindered the likes of Jordie and DMac really finding their feet at test level.
Jordie has played plenty of 15 now and has come of age in that position. He either plays 15 or he doesn't start.
Same for Savea at 7. Same for Goodhue at 13.
I also think it's too soon for Rieko as a centre. He needs more time to learn the craft. We know he's electric on attack but that's only one aspect of playing centre. He has the potential to be world class in that position but it's going to take some time.
Rodders is one of my favourite ABs and when he made the 2002 EOYT and got one start (Wales?) I was stoked for him. But then he makes the starting side for the winter test against England and the test we prefer not to remember I thought okay he’s young, but for a starting AB no.8 he will need to get better and quickly or the pressure and noise on him and the AB coaches would be fever pitch.
Rodders played as a flanker for Wellington. He had excellent speed from being a quality 7s player and getting off the mark quickly.
He got some limited opportunities thereafter but it wasn’t until 05 BIL series that Henry had confidence that this is our guy and we will back him in for the long haul and the rest is history.
Some players have more conventional paths along their AB career, but others less so. I doubt Kahui ever thought he would be playing as a starting winger for an AB RWC campaign.
But they played Rodders at 8 consistently, and it did take him quite a while to find his feet in that position despite his talents. That kind of proves my point, you can't keep switching players positions around and expect them to excel, especially at test level.
Kahui was an OK winger and very much just a "safe"option for us then. The main reason he never settled in one position at test level was he was injured 99% of the time.
One player that immediately made it work was Mils. Picked on his form at 13 and ethen excelled at 15. But again he played basically nothing but 15 from then onwards.
@No-Quarter Rodders first test under Henry, he was selected to play blindside. Then in the BIL series you may recall he started the 3rd test at openside.
My point is that players can be moved around early in their AB career and then can settle into a position. Obviously there are many factors at play - ability, who else is available and their experience and ability.
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The other key thing for me is the combination, and whilst the debate of Savea vs Cane has almost reached Trump/Biden levels, it was evident that the combination just wasn’t there with our back row. I remember the scratchy play initially with Collins, McCaw and Rodders before that settled. Many calling for a bigger (Lauaki) or someone taller (Tuiali’i) or something else because it wasn’t performing. Also some criticised Collins for drifting in and out of games.
What I saw today was a team not in sync. It was evident though that when we were on the counter or in broken play, our instincts kick in and it seems to trigger something in our backs at least. But in set piece or phase play it was off.
The question for the coaches is are they ‘all in’ on the back row and midfield? Or are we testing combinations like what other AB coaches have done when they’ve started out before landing on the sweet spot.
See for me ALB is the best midfielder in the squad including those unavailable due to injury. But he’s on the bench?
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@rotated said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
The leader in the clubhouse for worst first year is Laurie Mains' and Fozzie ain't off to a good start.
Bit hard on Laurie, he had to mould together a new team against the current RWC holders after a disastrous ABs RWC campaign rife with division - and he lost 2-1 in one of the greatest and closest Bledisloe Cup series ever (I think the exact same number of points were scored by both teams and the biggest margin was 3 or 4).
@Nepia said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@rotated said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
The leader in the clubhouse for worst first year is Laurie Mains' and Fozzie ain't off to a good start.
Bit hard on Laurie, he had to mould together a new team against the current RWC holders after a disastrous ABs RWC campaign rife with division - and he lost 2-1 in one of the greatest and closest Bledisloe Cup series ever (I think the exact same number of points were scored by both teams and the biggest margin was 3 or 4).
It wasn't just the Bledisloe; they lost the midweek game to NSW, lost to World XV then lost to SA on reentry. They should have lost to Ireland in Dunedin that year too?
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@NTA Absolutely love how filthy Cane looks in that video - clearly still stewing over that match
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Its always hard to know what to make of a draw. Strange we were at home, picked 3 full backs and still seemed to struggle with the conditions. I did not have much of a problem with the forwards, not quite sure why Fritzell catching so much flack but was happy with Sotutu but don't really expect many changes to the pack. In the backs I would expect Clarke to come in to the XV and BB to 15 if fit. Even though Bridge is not as bad as some make out the ball carrying of Clarke is something we need. If BB and Mounga are fit DMac has almost no shot at being in the 23. Also not seeing how Reiko is going to start next game.
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Its always hard to know what to make of a draw. Strange we were at home, picked 3 full backs and still seemed to struggle with the conditions. I did not have much of a problem with the forwards, not quite sure why Fritzell catching so much flack but was happy with Sotutu but don't really expect many changes to the pack. In the backs I would expect Clarke to come in to the XV and BB to 15 if fit. Even though Bridge is not as bad as some make out the ball carrying of Clarke is something we need. If BB and Mounga are fit DMac has almost no shot at being in the 23. Also not seeing how Reiko is going to start next game.
@DMX said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
Its always hard to know what to make of a draw. Strange we were at home, picked 3 full backs and still seemed to struggle with the conditions. I did not have much of a problem with the forwards, not quite sure why Fritzell catching so much flack but was happy with Sotutu but don't really expect many changes to the pack. In the backs I would expect Clarke to come in to the XV and BB to 15 if fit. Even though Bridge is not as bad as some make out the ball carrying of Clarke is something we need. If BB and Mounga are fit DMac has almost no shot at being in the 23. Also not seeing how Reiko is going to start next game.
Mounga openly admitted in the "In the Sheds" video after the match that he hated playing at the Caketin because of the conditions. Such a shit attitude - you're playing in an AB test match, which could go a long way to securing your stewardship of the 10 jersey for the foreseeable, and you've resigned yourself to having a shitter from the off. Explains a lot about his performance and suggests he might not have what it takes to make it at test level
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@DMX said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
Its always hard to know what to make of a draw. Strange we were at home, picked 3 full backs and still seemed to struggle with the conditions. I did not have much of a problem with the forwards, not quite sure why Fritzell catching so much flack but was happy with Sotutu but don't really expect many changes to the pack. In the backs I would expect Clarke to come in to the XV and BB to 15 if fit. Even though Bridge is not as bad as some make out the ball carrying of Clarke is something we need. If BB and Mounga are fit DMac has almost no shot at being in the 23. Also not seeing how Reiko is going to start next game.
Mounga openly admitted in the "In the Sheds" video after the match that he hated playing at the Caketin because of the conditions. Such a shit attitude - you're playing in an AB test match, which could go a long way to securing your stewardship of the 10 jersey for the foreseeable, and you've resigned yourself to having a shitter from the off. Explains a lot about his performance and suggests he might not have what it takes to make it at test level
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Mounga had a really poor game I thought given the weather. I also think goodhue should be 13 or not in the team. Best memory will be Clarke’s cameo. O for awesome. You’d have to think BB to 10 and JB to 15 for the next game.
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@nzzp said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
well, shit I'm still steaming.
I'm pissed, and the reason is that all of this was called in advance. Players picked out of position, poor game plan and dumb rugby - everything we feared about Foster's All Blacks. We had better players than Australia, but they were clearly better coached and it showed. Up for it? Not sure we were in the same way.
Positives
Cane was outstanding. If you wanted a leader look at that bastard. Worked his guts out.
Defence was really solid. Some freakish tries (following interesting ref calls) to get there.
Um, I'm struggling after thatNegatives
Players out of position killed us. Jordie, Ardie, Goodhue in particular
Forwards were good without being dominant
Mo'unga chose a bad time to shit the bed.
Gameplan was terrible (what gameplan), and the lack of rugby nous in fielding kicks had me yelling at the TV. Seriously, with the wind behind them, how the hell do you let a farking dropout from the 22 go over your head, and basically gift Aus 40 m and possession. My. Head. Exploded.
Lack of a dropgoal at the end. Have we learned nothing from SA a few years ago? Seriously? FFS people, get betterWe did well living on scraps, offense looked great in the first 40. Rieko needs to learn how to put the ball down.
Unlike @tim I'm OK with Frizzel; he just smashed into people all night.Argh, I'm really annoyed. Win here was important. God knows we need to get up next week
But how good was that Aggies win over the Gators!!
@ACT-Crusader said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
But how good was that Aggies win over the Gators!!
Result! I watched a bit of Miami-Clemson ... Clemson just dismantled them, and Miami struggled to fire a shot. Defence got ripped.
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@Crazy-Horse Aaron Smith does have a habit of trying to do too much, when his first role should be give the ball to the 10. He box-kicked heaps from our 22 when I would've preferred he give it to RM. Maybe Nugget is the issue?
@westcoastie said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
@Crazy-Horse Aaron Smith does have a habit of trying to do too much, when his first role should be give the ball to the 10. He box-kicked heaps from our 22 when I would've preferred he give it to RM. Maybe Nugget is the issue?
If we are kicking from our 22, I 100% want the halfback to do it. Why pass it back 10 meters to do the same thing. Only want it going to 10 in those situations when need to open the angle.
That's pretty standard from all teams in modern rugby because of the allowed blockers.
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To be honest I think the problems were more game plan oriented than the personnel we selected.
We seemed to not play to our strengths with those we selected, I don't think the issues were Jordie, Ardie, Goodhue or Ioane being selected out of position, they are all quality players and none of them on thier own were poor nor the cause of the
lossdraw (sure point to Ioanes error, but it kinda summed up the accuracy of the team as a whole)Not sure we will see too much change either, maybe Clarke over Bridge, or Ioane back to 11, but if Foster is showing a similar pattern and style to Hansen, I expect we may see the same team rolled out.
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I've calmed down a bit now, having had to go pay $430 to get my daughter's macbook fixed after she spilled water on it last week.
That whole process - forking out money to Apple :angry_face: - was more enjoyable than watching Williams referee.
And before you get going: I completed my field test with NSW Rugby and am an accredited ref so I come from a position of knowledge on this. So... yeah... suck my balls all of you armchair fucking refs
As an introductory note: how AFG missed that foot on the line will forever be a mystery. You make a living out of this Angus. The lines are nice and straight. Stick your fucking flag up. Does it make some kind of cosmic justice thing when Ioane refuses to mess up his hair while dropping the ball later? No. It does not.
Some refs - a lot of the French ones - just let players sort it out, mostly. Sometimes that can looks weird, but then they make a decision and you figure they're just keeping the threshold for intervention high i.e. they don't want to be the star attraction. Sometimes the decision made is a head scratcher but you sort of accept French people are weird and move on.
Williams tends to avoid decisions whenever he can - even when it is blindingly obvious that a decision needs to be made. In the first half Mounga gets rid of the ball and a full second later Wilson absolutely clatters him - right in front. Williams sort of puts his arm out and then does nothing. Just gets on with things. Multiple tackles from both teams go high - not dangerously so, but potential for escalation which should be ruled on early to set a marker - and he does nothing.
He rightly pings Tupou for being a shitwit at ruck time (twice
) because it is well past the back of the ruck when he finishes trying to piss off Aaron Smith (a noble pursuit). But I counted at least three times for each team where a cleanout happened from the side of the ruck and did zero.Penalises Koroibete for going off his feet when no AB was contesting the ball, then lets it go for another Wallaby player in the same situation and says nobody was contesting the ball
Of course, there are the big ones - the biggest of which is probably the two scrums later in the second half where Alalaatoa hands out a complete reaming to Karl T (who packed at an angle, pushed at an angle, and got folded into an angle on the ground), and tells the Wobs "you're not getting it", then does Sio for exactly the same thing at the next scrum. What were the fucking ARs doing while Alalaatoa was introducing Big Karl's forehead to the turf?
I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the referee review. It isn't easy - I know that from personal experience even at my gumby level of refereeing. But there are head scratchers and then there is out and out inconsistency that leads to incompetence.
EDIT: oh and the 2 short arms against Australia for going early at scrum time? Every fucking ref knows that the second one is a penalty you tit.
@NTA said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
I've calmed down a bit now, having had to go pay $430 to get my daughter's macbook fixed after she spilled water on it last week.
That whole process - forking out money to Apple :angry_face: - was more enjoyable than watching Williams referee.
And before you get going: I completed my field test with NSW Rugby and am an accredited ref so I come from a position of knowledge on this. So... yeah... suck my balls all of you armchair fucking refs
As an introductory note: how AFG missed that foot on the line will forever be a mystery. You make a living out of this Angus. The lines are nice and straight. Stick your fucking flag up. Does it make some kind of cosmic justice thing when Ioane refuses to mess up his hair while dropping the ball later? No. It does not.
Some refs - a lot of the French ones - just let players sort it out, mostly. Sometimes that can looks weird, but then they make a decision and you figure they're just keeping the threshold for intervention high i.e. they don't want to be the star attraction. Sometimes the decision made is a head scratcher but you sort of accept French people are weird and move on.
Williams tends to avoid decisions whenever he can - even when it is blindingly obvious that a decision needs to be made. In the first half Mounga gets rid of the ball and a full second later Wilson absolutely clatters him - right in front. Williams sort of puts his arm out and then does nothing. Just gets on with things. Multiple tackles from both teams go high - not dangerously so, but potential for escalation which should be ruled on early to set a marker - and he does nothing.
He rightly pings Tupou for being a shitwit at ruck time (twice
) because it is well past the back of the ruck when he finishes trying to piss off Aaron Smith (a noble pursuit). But I counted at least three times for each team where a cleanout happened from the side of the ruck and did zero.Penalises Koroibete for going off his feet when no AB was contesting the ball, then lets it go for another Wallaby player in the same situation and says nobody was contesting the ball
Of course, there are the big ones - the biggest of which is probably the two scrums later in the second half where Alalaatoa hands out a complete reaming to Karl T (who packed at an angle, pushed at an angle, and got folded into an angle on the ground), and tells the Wobs "you're not getting it", then does Sio for exactly the same thing at the next scrum. What were the fucking ARs doing while Alalaatoa was introducing Big Karl's forehead to the turf?
I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the referee review. It isn't easy - I know that from personal experience even at my gumby level of refereeing. But there are head scratchers and then there is out and out inconsistency that leads to incompetence.
EDIT: oh and the 2 short arms against Australia for going early at scrum time? Every fucking ref knows that the second one is a penalty you tit.
Oh no! A new amateur ref who suddenly thinks he knows it all. The worst kind of armchair commentator!
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To be honest I think the problems were more game plan oriented than the personnel we selected.
We seemed to not play to our strengths with those we selected, I don't think the issues were Jordie, Ardie, Goodhue or Ioane being selected out of position, they are all quality players and none of them on thier own were poor nor the cause of the
lossdraw (sure point to Ioanes error, but it kinda summed up the accuracy of the team as a whole)Not sure we will see too much change either, maybe Clarke over Bridge, or Ioane back to 11, but if Foster is showing a similar pattern and style to Hansen, I expect we may see the same team rolled out.
@taniwharugby said in Bledisloe One: Wellington, October 11:
To be honest I think the problems were more game plan oriented than the personnel we selected.
Yeah, partly. Three fullbacks but we got hammered in the kicking game? May as well pick Clarke, Sivivatu and Masaga if you don't care about kicking
Look, despite the poor play, we got dominated in possession and territory, and still should have won that going away. The upside for NZ is there, and a lot is goign to be fixed - particularly RIoane's defence ... he's early in his 13 career.
