European Club Rugby
-
@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
So it’s just as likely they would like to stack their teams?
Says who? What the smaller unions have learnt is that investing in domestic pathway pays off. And splurging a shit-load of money on an ex-AB or Saffer doesn’t necessarily pay off. Glaring example, Piutau at Ulster. On the other hand, a stalwart like Hayden Triggs or Louis Ludik costs a lot less but pays off in spades with commitment, loyalty and helping to develop younger players - whilst keeping the numbers low.
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
So it’s just as likely they would like to stack their teams?
Says who? What the smaller unions have learnt is that investing in domestic pathway pays off. And splurging a shit-load of money on an ex-AB or Saffer doesn’t necessarily pay off. Glaring example, Piutau at Ulster. On the other hand, a stalwart like Hayden Triggs or Louis Ludik costs a lot less but pays off in spades with commitment, loyalty and helping to develop younger players - whilst keeping the numbers low.
I am saying your data could assert both possible outcomes. I rather in-eloquently suggested that both cases are equally possible.
- They would love to stack their teams with expat talent.
- They have made a conscious decision to not use expat talent.
The raw data about player numbers doesn't prove either of these hypothesis to be true. Because we know that the French can out compete them financially when it comes to marquee players. So both conclusions are as I put it "Just as likely"
We would all love to believe that the smaller unions are being fiscally responsible. And maybe they are, but not by their own choice.
- RQ means residency-qualified
-
Also, this seems the best place for this as I can't find the mega Hammetteur thread. @Chris-B 's bestie comes out looking like, well, how we expect him to come out looking.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/truth-player-revolt-cardiff-blues-15273628
@nepia said in NH club rugby:
Also, this seems the best place for this as I can't find the mega Hammetteur thread. @Chris-B 's bestie comes out looking like, well, how we expect him to come out looking.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/truth-player-revolt-cardiff-blues-15273628
Why is none of that surprising?
For the Hammatuer himself, at least he can be safe in the knowledge that he may get a chance alongside Moonhead in an Eddie Jones coaching group. -
what. the. actual. fuck?
Seriously, what is becoming of rugby? This is not a "back in my day" rant, this is a "how is that ever a red card?" It shouldn't have even been a yellow! Cipriani doesn't even want to be there, let alone trying to smack the guy with a shoulder, he essentially stands there and the tackled player runs in to his shoulder face first, ably assisted by the first tackler.
The current interpretations of what constitutes a red or a yellow card are a deadset joke. And i have gone from one of those "cards don't ruin games" guys to "the refs are being forced to ruin games with cards".
Are these regulations resulting in less concussions? or just more cards?
I can't believe it's come to this, but i prefer the League system, where you effectively have to kill someone to get red carded. Rugby has lost the plot.
@mariner4life said in NH club rugby:
what. the. actual. fuck?
Seriously, what is becoming of rugby? This is not a "back in my day" rant, this is a "how is that ever a red card?" It shouldn't have even been a yellow! Cipriani doesn't even want to be there, let alone trying to smack the guy with a shoulder, he essentially stands there and the tackled player runs in to his shoulder face first, ably assisted by the first tackler.
Totally agree.
It's like having a pedestrian step out in front of a car then blaming the driver for being careless.
Madness. -
what. the. actual. fuck?
Seriously, what is becoming of rugby? This is not a "back in my day" rant, this is a "how is that ever a red card?" It shouldn't have even been a yellow! Cipriani doesn't even want to be there, let alone trying to smack the guy with a shoulder, he essentially stands there and the tackled player runs in to his shoulder face first, ably assisted by the first tackler.
The current interpretations of what constitutes a red or a yellow card are a deadset joke. And i have gone from one of those "cards don't ruin games" guys to "the refs are being forced to ruin games with cards".
Are these regulations resulting in less concussions? or just more cards?
I can't believe it's come to this, but i prefer the League system, where you effectively have to kill someone to get red carded. Rugby has lost the plot.
@mariner4life said in NH club rugby:
what. the. actual. fuck?
Seriously, what is becoming of rugby? This is not a "back in my day" rant, this is a "how is that ever a red card?" It shouldn't have even been a yellow! Cipriani doesn't even want to be there, let alone trying to smack the guy with a shoulder, he essentially stands there and the tackled player runs in to his shoulder face first, ably assisted by the first tackler.
Yep, but this is partially in reaction to Sam Cane and Ireland a few years ago. Accidental shoulder to head is now treated as intentional shoulder to head - which is all a bit silly.
They are having similar issues in american football if it makes you feel better. The real question is how far do you go for the perception of player safety, because at the moment defensive players are letting go of QBs to avoid getting penalised.
-
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
-
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
That's a bit of a lick in the nuts but should be OK for NZ as things will bound to have been changed by the next Lions tour there. They can't stop meddling.
-
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
English players threatening to go on strike?
To play for England or the Lions?
Quite frankly fuck them.
I hate how one union gets to massively influence and possibly decide the outcome for the others.
-
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
That's a bit of a lick in the nuts but should be OK for NZ as things will bound to have been changed by the next Lions tour there. They can't stop meddling.
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
That's a bit of a lick in the nuts but should be OK for NZ as things will bound to have been changed by the next Lions tour there. They can't stop meddling.
I am confused - a lick in the nuts is a good thing isn't it?
-
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
That's a bit of a lick in the nuts but should be OK for NZ as things will bound to have been changed by the next Lions tour there. They can't stop meddling.
I am confused - a lick in the nuts is a good thing isn't it?
@crazy-horse said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
That's a bit of a lick in the nuts but should be OK for NZ as things will bound to have been changed by the next Lions tour there. They can't stop meddling.
I am confused - a lick in the nuts is a good thing isn't it?
Sorry old feller a typo my mistake. Should have read "a lick of the butt"' Hope that clears it up?
-
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
English players threatening to go on strike?
To play for England or the Lions?
Quite frankly fuck them.
I hate how one union gets to massively influence and possibly decide the outcome for the others.
@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@bovidae said in NH club rugby:
I'll put this article in here, as it's a by-product of the restructuring of English rugby's domestic calendar.
The implications for the next NZ tour is that there might not be a Maori game, just 3 tests and games against the 5 Super teams.
English players threatening to go on strike?
To play for England or the Lions?
Quite frankly fuck them.
I hate how one union gets to massively influence and possibly decide the outcome for the others.
You have to remember this was Stuff's take on things. The English players (note English, not necessarily England players) have been opposed to this change from the word go. They do not see the lengthening of the season as being workable and certainly not something they'd want to see.
Your point about one union riding roughshod over the rest though is a different matter. You'd think that the matter of Lions tours and other international tours would have been discussed with the other relevant parties, it would seem unworkable otherwise, but then we are talking about the RFU so don't rule anything out.
-
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
-
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
May work out well for Wales actually.
If English based Wales players could miss out on a Lions tour, it may encourage more to play for Welsh regions.
-
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
May work out well for Wales actually.
If English based Wales players could miss out on a Lions tour, it may encourage more to play for Welsh regions.
@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
May work out well for Wales actually.
If English based Wales players could miss out on a Lions tour, it may encourage more to play for Welsh regions.
Is that a big issue though? Off the top of my head, nailed on Wales first team squad members would be Francis, Faletau and Biggar, perhaps the winger from Worcester?
-
@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
May work out well for Wales actually.
If English based Wales players could miss out on a Lions tour, it may encourage more to play for Welsh regions.
Is that a big issue though? Off the top of my head, nailed on Wales first team squad members would be Francis, Faletau and Biggar, perhaps the winger from Worcester?
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
May work out well for Wales actually.
If English based Wales players could miss out on a Lions tour, it may encourage more to play for Welsh regions.
Is that a big issue though? Off the top of my head, nailed on Wales first team squad members would be Francis, Faletau and Biggar, perhaps the winger from Worcester?
Liam Williams
Ans we'll see how the Leicester kid goes soon. -
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
May work out well for Wales actually.
If English based Wales players could miss out on a Lions tour, it may encourage more to play for Welsh regions.
Is that a big issue though? Off the top of my head, nailed on Wales first team squad members would be Francis, Faletau and Biggar, perhaps the winger from Worcester?
Liam Williams
Ans we'll see how the Leicester kid goes soon.@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@mikethesnow said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The key point - not in the stuff article - is that in 2020 and 2022 - the Premiership final takes place a week earlier - funny that.
It also omits the fact that the PRO14 Championship has already said it’s willing to finish its season sooner. When it becomes the PRO16, the regular season number of games will likely reduce by another 3 weeks to 18 and then finals stage - making it 21 weeks in total.
So, the Lions tours will likely have less English players in them in the future.
May work out well for Wales actually.
If English based Wales players could miss out on a Lions tour, it may encourage more to play for Welsh regions.
Is that a big issue though? Off the top of my head, nailed on Wales first team squad members would be Francis, Faletau and Biggar, perhaps the winger from Worcester?
Liam Williams
Ans we'll see how the Leicester kid goes soon.I'd forgotten about Williams, yeah it is mounting up I guess.
-
^ The stuff article. Unsurprisingly not very well researched.
The reduction of the Lions tour from 6 weeks to 5 weeks (or 10 games to 8 games) is quite old news.
What is new news is that the English Premiership's decision here will mean that the same issue at the start of the 2017 tour (English based players unavailable for the first week of the tour and unavailable for the pre-tour camps) will occur again even though the tour is reduced and by that time the international window is moved to July.
In 2017 it meant the team was weak and unorganised for the tour operner against the semi-pros in Whangarei. But it could still be worked through and players integrated in the 2 weeks of touring before the first test.
In 2021-2033 there won't be that wriggle room.
If I was the coach I would seriously consider whether I could build a stronger squad out of the celtic nations only rather than the full 4 nations but with my preperations totally up the waazoo.
From a SANZAAR point of view. I'd like them to seriously consider withdrawing from reciprocal June/November agreements with the RFU. In an attempt to put pressure on the RFU to put pressure on EPR. I haven't thought this through, though. Obviously they'd need to do a cost/benefit analysis. Even then I'm not sure whether they would then have a legal leg to stand on as we are talking about the week before the international window for the first week of the Lions tour. Plus SANZAR aren't currently very united ......
-
La Rochelle (including Victor Vito) beat a star-studded Toulon team (including Julian Savea and Malakei Fekitoa) away with Ihaia West scoring all the points for the visitors. Toulon are now 13th in the Top 14 and risk a relegation battle if they can't improve their form.
-
La Rochelle (including Victor Vito) beat a star-studded Toulon team (including Julian Savea and Malakei Fekitoa) away with Ihaia West scoring all the points for the visitors. Toulon are now 13th in the Top 14 and risk a relegation battle if they can't improve their form.
@sparky said in NH club rugby:
La Rochelle (including Victor Vito) beat a star-studded Toulon team (including Julian Savea and Malakei Fekitoa) away with Ihaia West scoring all the points for the visitors. Toulon are now 13th in the Top 14 and risk a relegation battle if they can't improve their form.
Makes you wonder if providing past peak overseas players with a comfy salary and far less motivation than they used to have is such a great idea.
-
@sparky said in NH club rugby:
La Rochelle (including Victor Vito) beat a star-studded Toulon team (including Julian Savea and Malakei Fekitoa) away with Ihaia West scoring all the points for the visitors. Toulon are now 13th in the Top 14 and risk a relegation battle if they can't improve their form.
Makes you wonder if providing past peak overseas players with a comfy salary and far less motivation than they used to have is such a great idea.
@crucial said in NH club rugby:
@sparky said in NH club rugby:
La Rochelle (including Victor Vito) beat a star-studded Toulon team (including Julian Savea and Malakei Fekitoa) away with Ihaia West scoring all the points for the visitors. Toulon are now 13th in the Top 14 and risk a relegation battle if they can't improve their form.
Makes you wonder if providing past peak overseas players with a comfy salary and far less motivation than they used to have is such a great idea.
Not to be snarky but its been a winning formula for a few years now, and also its not like La Rochelle is some home grown success story.
