European Club Rugby
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@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
I think why they are playing the game probably drives them a bit more too.
In NZ in the ABs they are playing more for the jersey and what it represents (a bit dramatic maybe) and less money knowing there is a player who could take it all away just sitting there waiting.
While the NH they get paid a shed load more, less pressure, less scrutiny, lower level of rugby...sure there is personal standards, but sometimes you need other things to drive you along as well.
Not to mention many of the established ABs are usually past thier prime as well.
Funny that you mention this. I read a piece of analysis done by Esportif International on salaries the other day and they said that the ABs average salary of the starting 15 players was about £306k, slightly more than Ireland at £297k and England at 294k. This doesnt include match fees which are far greater in England.
https://esportif.com/the-numbers-dont-lie/Is that before or after sportsperson relief?
@antipodean said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
I think why they are playing the game probably drives them a bit more too.
In NZ in the ABs they are playing more for the jersey and what it represents (a bit dramatic maybe) and less money knowing there is a player who could take it all away just sitting there waiting.
While the NH they get paid a shed load more, less pressure, less scrutiny, lower level of rugby...sure there is personal standards, but sometimes you need other things to drive you along as well.
Not to mention many of the established ABs are usually past thier prime as well.
Funny that you mention this. I read a piece of analysis done by Esportif International on salaries the other day and they said that the ABs average salary of the starting 15 players was about £306k, slightly more than Ireland at £297k and England at 294k. This doesnt include match fees which are far greater in England.
https://esportif.com/the-numbers-dont-lie/Is that before or after sportsperson relief?
Sportspersons Tax Relief only comes into play when you retire from your chosen professional sport. It’s a tax credit applied to the gross salary you’ve earned in 10 of the previous 13 years and that tax has already been paid in Ireland - you get back the difference in revised PAYE tax due after relief vs what you’ve already paid. It doesn’t cover expenses, or income from sponsorships, publicity or related marketing gigs. Nor does it cover other taxes such as Social Insurance or Universal Social Charge. It wasn’t designed specifically for rugby players, more horse jockeys as it was a horse-racing mad Minister who brought it in - 2001 I think.
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@antipodean said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
I think why they are playing the game probably drives them a bit more too.
In NZ in the ABs they are playing more for the jersey and what it represents (a bit dramatic maybe) and less money knowing there is a player who could take it all away just sitting there waiting.
While the NH they get paid a shed load more, less pressure, less scrutiny, lower level of rugby...sure there is personal standards, but sometimes you need other things to drive you along as well.
Not to mention many of the established ABs are usually past thier prime as well.
Funny that you mention this. I read a piece of analysis done by Esportif International on salaries the other day and they said that the ABs average salary of the starting 15 players was about £306k, slightly more than Ireland at £297k and England at 294k. This doesnt include match fees which are far greater in England.
https://esportif.com/the-numbers-dont-lie/Is that before or after sportsperson relief?
Sportspersons Tax Relief only comes into play when you retire from your chosen professional sport. It’s a tax credit applied to the gross salary you’ve earned in 10 of the previous 13 years and that tax has already been paid in Ireland - you get back the difference in revised PAYE tax due after relief vs what you’ve already paid. It doesn’t cover expenses, or income from sponsorships, publicity or related marketing gigs. Nor does it cover other taxes such as Social Insurance or Universal Social Charge. It wasn’t designed specifically for rugby players, more horse jockeys as it was a horse-racing mad Minister who brought it in - 2001 I think.
@derm-mccrum My point being they're better off in the long run given its treatment?
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@derm-mccrum My point being they're better off in the long run given its treatment?
@antipodean said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum My point being they're better off in the long run given its treatment?
I don’t know - on the face of it yes but depends on what match fees and other salary “incentives” other players receive as Taniwhahrugby outlined above. And I suppose the tax rates in the respective countries. The collective Irish tax rate is about 51% on earnings above €42,000.
It’s not seen as a big driver for players in staying in Ireland.
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@antipodean said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum My point being they're better off in the long run given its treatment?
I don’t know - on the face of it yes but depends on what match fees and other salary “incentives” other players receive as Taniwhahrugby outlined above. And I suppose the tax rates in the respective countries. The collective Irish tax rate is about 51% on earnings above €42,000.
It’s not seen as a big driver for players in staying in Ireland.
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
It’s not seen as a big driver for players in staying in Ireland.
Fair enough. I recalled reading somewhere that it provided a major incentive for players to stay in Ireland, or at least insure they retired in Ireland.
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@derm-mccrum I would have thought that was more likely the senior AB salary, including thier Super contract, I believe Super contract and 7s is about £80k, basic Mitre 10 Cup Salary is about £5k....newbie ABs are less.
I think Read, like McCaw and DC before him were up around $1,000,000 of salary (circa £550k) so you'd think the likes of Read, BBBR, Whitelock, BB, BFA, FRanks, Reiko would distort figures slightly, with NZR probably paying them pretty much top dollar to retain them.
I believe they can then have sponsor endorsements as long as they do not conflict with NZR sponsors...although I saw Ardie is Asics Brand Ambassador, which is obviously competition for Adidas, so assume maybe this was a bit of wiggle room given when he recently renegotiated?
I guess for French and English players if they play for thier Nation and get paid by club they can earn alot more.
@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum I would have thought that was more likely the senior AB salary, including thier Super contract, I believe Super contract and 7s is about £80k, basic Mitre 10 Cup Salary is about £5k....newbie ABs are less.
I think Read, like McCaw and DC before him were up around $1,000,000 of salary (circa £550k) so you'd think the likes of Read, BBBR, Whitelock, BB, BFA, FRanks, Reiko would distort figures slightly, with NZR probably paying them pretty much top dollar to retain them.
I believe they can then have sponsor endorsements as long as they do not conflict with NZR sponsors...although I saw Ardie is Asics Brand Ambassador, which is obviously competition for Adidas, so assume maybe this was a bit of wiggle room given when he recently renegotiated?
I guess for French and English players if they play for thier Nation and get paid by club they can earn alot more.
They say its the average salary per player for all three teams.
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@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum I would have thought that was more likely the senior AB salary, including thier Super contract, I believe Super contract and 7s is about £80k, basic Mitre 10 Cup Salary is about £5k....newbie ABs are less.
I think Read, like McCaw and DC before him were up around $1,000,000 of salary (circa £550k) so you'd think the likes of Read, BBBR, Whitelock, BB, BFA, FRanks, Reiko would distort figures slightly, with NZR probably paying them pretty much top dollar to retain them.
I believe they can then have sponsor endorsements as long as they do not conflict with NZR sponsors...although I saw Ardie is Asics Brand Ambassador, which is obviously competition for Adidas, so assume maybe this was a bit of wiggle room given when he recently renegotiated?
I guess for French and English players if they play for thier Nation and get paid by club they can earn alot more.
They say its the average salary per player for all three teams.
@derm-mccrum I realise that...hence my "I would have thought that was more likely the senior AB salary"
I assume the Irish Internationals dont get paid by thier clubs as well as thier Ireland salary?
Whereas that England player salary would mean they earn £294k plus whatever they might be earning in the Premiership or France.
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@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
It’s not seen as a big driver for players in staying in Ireland.
Fair enough. I recalled reading somewhere that it provided a major incentive for players to stay in Ireland, or at least insure they retired in Ireland.
@antipodean said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
It’s not seen as a big driver for players in staying in Ireland.
Fair enough. I recalled reading somewhere that it provided a major incentive for players to stay in Ireland, or at least insure they retired in Ireland.
It’s lazily misunderstood by media outside Ireland who report it as tax break for players annually, and that it was brought in by the IRFU in recent times to keep players in Ireland, etc, etc. The retire in Ireland is no longer necessary as EU intervened about 5/6 years ago and it’s now retire in the EU or countries in EFTA. Thus Zebo who has moved to France and is being paid more than any tax relief he might receive for playing in Ireland, and he can retire there. He can claim relief on any tax he paid whilst playing in Ireland within the limits specified. For example, on a salary of €300k, with expenses of say €100k, you’d pay €80k in PAYE tax. On retirement, this would generate a tax refund of €48k.
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@derm-mccrum I realise that...hence my "I would have thought that was more likely the senior AB salary"
I assume the Irish Internationals dont get paid by thier clubs as well as thier Ireland salary?
Whereas that England player salary would mean they earn £294k plus whatever they might be earning in the Premiership or France.
@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum I realise that...hence my "I would have thought that was more likely the senior AB salary"
I assume the Irish Internationals dont get paid by thier clubs as well as thier Ireland salary?
Whereas that England player salary would mean they earn £294k plus whatever they might be earning in the Premiership or France.
No - the salaries eSportif are talking about are what the unions or clubs pay them. Match fees are not included - which in England are a whopping 22k per game.
Ireland players get paid a match fee - there is no additional salary per se. Performance bonuses are separate too.
I’m not sure if you’re talking about the 14 central contract players who are paid by the IRFU in which case, yes they get paid by Union and not their club. They are Kearney, Earls, Henshaw, Sexton, Murray, Stander, SOB, POM, Toner, Henderson, McGrath, Healy, Furlong, Best.
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London Irish are moving back to London:
https://www.london-irish.com/news/back-in-town-the-irish-are-returning-to-london/bp2044/
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Last night was a better night for Chris Boyd:
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Watched the Irish State of Origin.
Munster had Alby Mathewson and Tyler Bleyendaal as the reserve halves.
Leinster had James Lowe and Michael Bent. Lowe got himself a red card for taking a player out in the air - who landed on his head/neck.
Munster won, it was a gripping enough encounter, despite a lack of real attacking prowess.
But I'm no longer sitting on any high horse when it comes to NH rugby, because it's Ireland 2 NZ 1 in the last 3 tests.
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Watched the Irish State of Origin.
Munster had Alby Mathewson and Tyler Bleyendaal as the reserve halves.
Leinster had James Lowe and Michael Bent. Lowe got himself a red card for taking a player out in the air - who landed on his head/neck.
Munster won, it was a gripping enough encounter, despite a lack of real attacking prowess.
But I'm no longer sitting on any high horse when it comes to NH rugby, because it's Ireland 2 NZ 1 in the last 3 tests.
@Billy-Tell It wasn't a state of origin match, it was Leinster Vs Munster in the Guinness Pro 12.......
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1229/1019516-munster-sink-14-man-leinster-in-bad-tempered-clash/
Doug Howlett is now Head of Commerical and Marketing at Muster now.
https://munsterrugby.ie/2017/09/01/howlett-appointed-head-of-commercial-and-marketing/
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Watched the Irish State of Origin.
Munster had Alby Mathewson and Tyler Bleyendaal as the reserve halves.
Leinster had James Lowe and Michael Bent. Lowe got himself a red card for taking a player out in the air - who landed on his head/neck.
Munster won, it was a gripping enough encounter, despite a lack of real attacking prowess.
But I'm no longer sitting on any high horse when it comes to NH rugby, because it's Ireland 2 NZ 1 in the last 3 tests.
@Billy-Tell said in NH club rugby:
Watched the Irish State of Origin.
Munster had Alby Mathewson and Tyler Bleyendaal as the reserve halves.
Leinster had James Lowe and Michael Bent. Lowe got himself a red card for taking a player out in the air - who landed on his head/neck.
Munster won, it was a gripping enough encounter, despite a lack of real attacking prowess.
But I'm no longer sitting on any high horse when it comes to NH rugby, because it's Ireland 2 NZ 1 in the last 3 tests.
Is that still a red? Didn't that change when they threw Angus under the bus?
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@Billy-Tell said in NH club rugby:
Watched the Irish State of Origin.
Munster had Alby Mathewson and Tyler Bleyendaal as the reserve halves.
Leinster had James Lowe and Michael Bent. Lowe got himself a red card for taking a player out in the air - who landed on his head/neck.
Munster won, it was a gripping enough encounter, despite a lack of real attacking prowess.
But I'm no longer sitting on any high horse when it comes to NH rugby, because it's Ireland 2 NZ 1 in the last 3 tests.
Is that still a red? Didn't that change when they threw Angus under the bus?
@booboo just depends who is tackled in the air.
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@Billy-Tell said in NH club rugby:
Watched the Irish State of Origin.
Munster had Alby Mathewson and Tyler Bleyendaal as the reserve halves.
Leinster had James Lowe and Michael Bent. Lowe got himself a red card for taking a player out in the air - who landed on his head/neck.
Munster won, it was a gripping enough encounter, despite a lack of real attacking prowess.
But I'm no longer sitting on any high horse when it comes to NH rugby, because it's Ireland 2 NZ 1 in the last 3 tests.
Is that still a red? Didn't that change when they threw Angus under the bus?
@booboo said in NH club rugby:
@Billy-Tell said in NH club rugby:
Watched the Irish State of Origin.
Munster had Alby Mathewson and Tyler Bleyendaal as the reserve halves.
Leinster had James Lowe and Michael Bent. Lowe got himself a red card for taking a player out in the air - who landed on his head/neck.
Munster won, it was a gripping enough encounter, despite a lack of real attacking prowess.
But I'm no longer sitting on any high horse when it comes to NH rugby, because it's Ireland 2 NZ 1 in the last 3 tests.
Is that still a red? Didn't that change when they threw Angus under the bus?
It was a red card - no debate from me. Lowe has a habit of losing his spatial awareness on high balls - didn’t do his team any favours. It was a feisty game with lots of hits, some lateish, and in your face aggression from Munster - Leinster couldn’t handle it on the night. Sexton got petulant, and Healy and Furlong got yellow cards. Not a good evening for the men in blue.
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@Billy-Tell It wasn't a state of origin match, it was Leinster Vs Munster in the Guinness Pro 12.......
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1229/1019516-munster-sink-14-man-leinster-in-bad-tempered-clash/
Doug Howlett is now Head of Commerical and Marketing at Muster now.
https://munsterrugby.ie/2017/09/01/howlett-appointed-head-of-commercial-and-marketing/
@sparky said in NH club rugby:
@Billy-Tell It wasn't a state of origin match, it was Leinster Vs Munster in the Guinness Pro 12.......
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1229/1019516-munster-sink-14-man-leinster-in-bad-tempered-clash/
I think he meant that Leinster v Munster matches have a great rivalry to them and are the best attended during the PRO14 season - 45,000 in the Aviva and 26,000 last night in Thomond.
Mind you, the Irish interpro derbies have been very good this Christmas with Ulster and Connacht doing well. The Leinster v Connacht match last week at the RDS was a 9-try humdinger with Leinster snatching the win after a 41-phase attack two minutes into the red.
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@sparky said in NH club rugby:
@Billy-Tell It wasn't a state of origin match, it was Leinster Vs Munster in the Guinness Pro 12.......
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1229/1019516-munster-sink-14-man-leinster-in-bad-tempered-clash/
I think he meant that Leinster v Munster matches have a great rivalry to them and are the best attended during the PRO14 season - 45,000 in the Aviva and 26,000 last night in Thomond.
Mind you, the Irish interpro derbies have been very good this Christmas with Ulster and Connacht doing well. The Leinster v Connacht match last week at the RDS was a 9-try humdinger with Leinster snatching the win after a 41-phase attack two minutes into the red.
@Derm-McCrum Amazing to see how well attended Rugby matches are in Ireland and how passionate the crowds are.
The low attendance and all those empty seats at domestic Rugby matches in New Zealand have become embarrassing.
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@Derm-McCrum Amazing to see how well attended Rugby matches are in Ireland and how passionate the crowds are.
The low attendance and all those empty seats at domestic Rugby matches in New Zealand have become embarrassing.
@sparky said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum Amazing to see how well attended Rugby matches are in Ireland and how passionate the crowds are.
The low attendance and all those empty seats at domestic Rugby matches in New Zealand have become embarrassing.
Well in fairness, it is Christmas time so people are on holidays, festive spirit, middle of winter but good enough weather (mostly), and they are interprovincial derbies with lots of bragging rights and banter to be had.
The Irish provinces had about 564,000 (12,800 avg per match) through the gates last season for the PRO14 season - not counting the European Cup. If you exclude Connacht as the poor relation it’s 505k (14,900 avg) - don’t know how that compares to the NZ Super teams.
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@sparky said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum Amazing to see how well attended Rugby matches are in Ireland and how passionate the crowds are.
The low attendance and all those empty seats at domestic Rugby matches in New Zealand have become embarrassing.
Well in fairness, it is Christmas time so people are on holidays, festive spirit, middle of winter but good enough weather (mostly), and they are interprovincial derbies with lots of bragging rights and banter to be had.
The Irish provinces had about 564,000 (12,800 avg per match) through the gates last season for the PRO14 season - not counting the European Cup. If you exclude Connacht as the poor relation it’s 505k (14,900 avg) - don’t know how that compares to the NZ Super teams.
The best thing is that the grounds are the right size. NZ uses large stadia which are rarely full. Whereas the likes of the RDS are smaller which creates a much better atmosphere.
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The best thing is that the grounds are the right size. NZ uses large stadia which are rarely full. Whereas the likes of the RDS are smaller which creates a much better atmosphere.
@Billy-Tell said in NH club rugby:
The best thing is that the grounds are the right size. NZ uses large stadia which are rarely full. Whereas the likes of the RDS are smaller which creates a much better atmosphere.
True - although Connacht’s Sportsground is too small (8,000 max) and they’ve started the process of a redevelopment and expansion to 12,000.
