Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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that game and reading through some peoples comments in the match thread makes me think, we're just not innovating or learning from our failings
so there was the comment that you cant win a turnover without a dominant tackle, put simply i understand but then two thoughts occur to me
- Is it worth is if we're getting it wrong so often (even if only in the refs eyes) and getting carded or penalised? if we cant get these tackles right are we better to try and force an error rather than turn over
- other countries seem to be getting the tackle right more than we are, often a tackler and then the jackal right on their shoulder, where as if we have two both try and put in a dominant tackle doubling the chance one will get it wrong
Then there is the rush defence, why cant we come up with a way to counter it better...and if its so hard to counter why aren't we doing it to others, Lowe seemed to get on the end of backline moves several times where as IF reece or jordan did they were miles behind the advantage line and or on the back foot
Handling errors...so many handling errors, not all knock ons but several and then lots of passes to shoulders or behind players which just slows things down
We seem to have to confidence of world beaters, trying to open teams up from our own 22...but not the basic skill level for several of the team anyway
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that game and reading through some peoples comments in the match thread makes me think, we're just not innovating or learning from our failings
so there was the comment that you cant win a turnover without a dominant tackle, put simply i understand but then two thoughts occur to me
- Is it worth is if we're getting it wrong so often (even if only in the refs eyes) and getting carded or penalised? if we cant get these tackles right are we better to try and force an error rather than turn over
- other countries seem to be getting the tackle right more than we are, often a tackler and then the jackal right on their shoulder, where as if we have two both try and put in a dominant tackle doubling the chance one will get it wrong
Then there is the rush defence, why cant we come up with a way to counter it better...and if its so hard to counter why aren't we doing it to others, Lowe seemed to get on the end of backline moves several times where as IF reece or jordan did they were miles behind the advantage line and or on the back foot
Handling errors...so many handling errors, not all knock ons but several and then lots of passes to shoulders or behind players which just slows things down
We seem to have to confidence of world beaters, trying to open teams up from our own 22...but not the basic skill level for several of the team anyway
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
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@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
Opposition seem to get an easy roll on, not good
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
Opposition seem to get an easy roll on, not good
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
Opposition seem to get an easy roll on, not good
Do you not think that some of that is to do with reducing the risk of cards for tackles? Dominant tackles are great, but get it wrong, and you lose a man to the bin.
Ireland hunted in 2s at the weekend. A low chop tackle by one and the next man was onto the ball (legally or not). It slowed NZ down or disrupted at least if no turnover was effected. Ringrose was v good at this. Ireland also do the choke tackle still and gained plenty of reward when NZ runners got isolated.
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Bringing it back here, just to make the point for posterity: coaching matters.
South Africa - went from 57-0 thumping to RWC Champs in 2 years.
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
We need to go back to root and branch assessment in this country, and evolve quickly. I don't know why we're not testing rush defences in Super; they seem to work well to shut down time and space. We're not seeing innovation, but more of the same.
I'm most worried about our tight 5. Their poitn of difference used to be ball playing compared to others; now not the case. Ball running has largely disappeared from most of them, and we're not dominating set pieces.
Looking at the upside potential - if Sam plays limited minutes next year in Super and comes to the Internationals fizzing, alongside a rejuvenated Brodie we're good. Need to see a number of front rowers step back up, too. The downside is that we wind up with a pack that's over the hill, not strong enough or fast enough to compete, and without enough time before RWC2023 to develop new players.
The decision to reappoint was too early. It's ridiculous.
Edit: and of course, at Super level, Umaga --> MacDonald, Foster --> Rennie, Bladder --> Razor
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
Yeah - I think Foster was the continuity pick, but it is the continuity of sytems that others have caught up with and probably passed. As well as all the IP going abroad via coaches and players - Ted, Richie, Ceri Evans and others have written books giving some of it away.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
But, I look at Foster, Plumtree, McLeod, Hooar and think surely we could get more out of a group of Razor, Rangi, Brown, Gatland and Schmidt (not necessarily all of them (and supplemented by others) and if some of them are willing to put their egos away for the cause)?
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
Yeah - I think Foster was the continuity pick, but it is the continuity of sytems that others have caught up with and probably passed. As well as all the IP going abroad via coaches and players - Ted, Richie, Ceri Evans and others have written books giving some of it away.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
But, I look at Foster, Plumtree, McLeod, Hooar and think surely we could get more out of a group of Razor, Rangi, Brown, Gatland and Schmidt (not necessarily all of them (and supplemented by others) and if some of them are willing to put their egos away for the cause)?
@chris-b Your last point describes the difficulty of putting a "coaching team" together if they all want to be in charge or only work with specific people. Brown would have been a great addition to the ABs but that was only going to happen under Joseph. I would prefer we looked to RL for a defensive coach.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
Yeah - I think Foster was the continuity pick, but it is the continuity of sytems that others have caught up with and probably passed. As well as all the IP going abroad via coaches and players - Ted, Richie, Ceri Evans and others have written books giving some of it away.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
But, I look at Foster, Plumtree, McLeod, Hooar and think surely we could get more out of a group of Razor, Rangi, Brown, Gatland and Schmidt (not necessarily all of them (and supplemented by others) and if some of them are willing to put their egos away for the cause)?
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2021:
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
I'm thinking more of rules -responsive elements like the Aus Semi 2011 where we completely eliminated Pocock from the game by running at him. Or tactically the dual fullback structure. Or the pod system, or even the infamous 'flat backline'. Hell, right now innovation would be trying to play a fast recycle game up front, suck in defenders and then earn the right to go wide.
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@chris-b Your last point describes the difficulty of putting a "coaching team" together if they all want to be in charge or only work with specific people. Brown would have been a great addition to the ABs but that was only going to happen under Joseph. I would prefer we looked to RL for a defensive coach.
@bovidae Brown seems to have at least partly cut the umbilical cord with Joseph now and seems in the past to have preferred a technical rather than leadership job, so I think there's a good chance he would work under someone. I don't know whether Schmidt would be interested - but, something like the Blues consulting role might be possible. I think Razor has set his stall on head coach.
It's all speculation, but unfortunately, it all goes back to the foolishness surrounding the Robbie Deans question. Appoint the fucking head coach and then work with him to appoint the assistants from the available pool - don't have coaching teams applying.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2021:
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
I'm thinking more of rules -responsive elements like the Aus Semi 2011 where we completely eliminated Pocock from the game by running at him. Or tactically the dual fullback structure. Or the pod system, or even the infamous 'flat backline'. Hell, right now innovation would be trying to play a fast recycle game up front, suck in defenders and then earn the right to go wide.
@nzzp I've got a feeling that Razor might have come up with the innovation of kicking for the corner from penalties that the Irish used heavily to our detriment.
I remember the Crusaders being heavily criticised for their "arrogance" in doing this vs the B&I Lions.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
Yeah - I think Foster was the continuity pick, but it is the continuity of sytems that others have caught up with and probably passed. As well as all the IP going abroad via coaches and players - Ted, Richie, Ceri Evans and others have written books giving some of it away.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
But, I look at Foster, Plumtree, McLeod, Hooar and think surely we could get more out of a group of Razor, Rangi, Brown, Gatland and Schmidt (not necessarily all of them (and supplemented by others) and if some of them are willing to put their egos away for the cause)?
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
is that really how we'd judge coaching ability, thats a nice gimmick or novelty...not something you can base a game plan around
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
is that really how we'd judge coaching ability, thats a nice gimmick or novelty...not something you can base a game plan around
@kiwiwomble Yes!!!
Or, on second thoughts, maybe it's a small example.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
is that really how we'd judge coaching ability, thats a nice gimmick or novelty...not something you can base a game plan around
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
is that really how we'd judge coaching ability, thats a nice gimmick or novelty...not something you can base a game plan around
Fuck its better than the we don't have game plan throw our hands in the air I don't know what to do Game plan we have under these muppets.
They have had 2 seasons to sort this out plus Foster had 10 years under Hansen I don't see any thing bringing us forward from this coaching group. -
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
is that really how we'd judge coaching ability, thats a nice gimmick or novelty...not something you can base a game plan around
Fuck its better than the we don't have game plan throw our hands in the air I don't know what to do Game plan we have under these muppets.
They have had 2 seasons to sort this out plus Foster had 10 years under Hansen I don't see any thing bringing us forward from this coaching group. -
@chris that kind of what i was getting at....the biggest compliment we can find is they are still "innovating"...and the first example of that is pretty much a gimmick trick play...IE their not really innovating in a meaningful way
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris that kind of what i was getting at....the biggest compliment we can find is they are still "innovating"...and the first example of that is pretty much a gimmick trick play...IE their not really innovating in a meaningful way
Yep see your point
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rugby Planet gettingit right on their Hot or Not
Questions for Ian Foster: The All Blacks have had a much better 2021 but this was certainly a step backwards for the three-time world champions. After the issues in 2020 and the criticism that came Foster’s way, their results – and performances – this season certainly eased the pressure on the head coach, but the focus is now back on him and the coaching staff. He has now succumbed to Australia, Argentina, South Africa and Ireland in a year, and France could add their name to that list this weekend. Given that his predecessors Steve Hansen and Graham Henry rarely lost a match, let alone to that many countries, it is not a great record to have. It was a continuity appointment when they needed a visionary as, ultimately, it doesn’t feel like much has changed from the Henry and Hansen era. The British and Irish Lions, to a degree, figured them out in 2017 and since then not much has been altered, other than some of the personnel they are using, and you can’t really question the individual talent in New Zealand. It is now an especially huge game this weekend against Les Bleus..
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rugby Planet gettingit right on their Hot or Not
Questions for Ian Foster: The All Blacks have had a much better 2021 but this was certainly a step backwards for the three-time world champions. After the issues in 2020 and the criticism that came Foster’s way, their results – and performances – this season certainly eased the pressure on the head coach, but the focus is now back on him and the coaching staff. He has now succumbed to Australia, Argentina, South Africa and Ireland in a year, and France could add their name to that list this weekend. Given that his predecessors Steve Hansen and Graham Henry rarely lost a match, let alone to that many countries, it is not a great record to have. It was a continuity appointment when they needed a visionary as, ultimately, it doesn’t feel like much has changed from the Henry and Hansen era. The British and Irish Lions, to a degree, figured them out in 2017 and since then not much has been altered, other than some of the personnel they are using, and you can’t really question the individual talent in New Zealand. It is now an especially huge game this weekend against Les Bleus..
@machpants said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
rugby Planet gettingit right on their Hot or Not
Questions for Ian Foster: The All Blacks have had a much better 2021 but this was certainly a step backwards for the three-time world champions. After the issues in 2020 and the criticism that came Foster’s way, their results – and performances – this season certainly eased the pressure on the head coach, but the focus is now back on him and the coaching staff. He has now succumbed to Australia, Argentina, South Africa and Ireland in a year, and France could add their name to that list this weekend. Given that his predecessors Steve Hansen and Graham Henry rarely lost a match, let alone to that many countries, it is not a great record to have. It was a continuity appointment when they needed a visionary as, ultimately, it doesn’t feel like much has changed from the Henry and Hansen era. The British and Irish Lions, to a degree, figured them out in 2017 and since then not much has been altered, other than some of the personnel they are using, and you can’t really question the individual talent in New Zealand. It is now an especially huge game this weekend against Les Bleus..
Nailed it.
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I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.yeah, i get you are on a fucking red and black rage-a-thon at the moment, but i am not sure that's a stick you can beat him with.
He knows exactly who his preferred line up is
The problems are:
Moody and Taylor are past it. Behind Moody there isn't anyone bashing down the door. Behind Taylor Coles has been out for ages, and the next guy has his training wheels on
Whitelock has a lot of miles on teh clock and it shows, Retallick has been severly hamstrung by his time in Japan. The next guy is home having a baby, the rest are babies
In the loose, he has a hard on for Savea, because tests are won by YouTube highlight reels. He wanted Akira, but he blinked once he has a couple of low tests. Cane has been out. Everyone has been tried to varying levels of success, and not a single player saying "i am the guy"
Halfback we have one guy. TJP is rubbish. The rest are kids. Of the 5 starting halfbacks in NZ, one is ineligbile/injured
Neither 10 is gonna drive you around in a tight 1
He tried Havili as his 12 and it didn't work. His preferred partner is ALB, who for whatever reason hans't set the world on fire. Ioane is picked because we need something different there, and it's not working
He's basically run the same back 3 all year because it is workingFoster and the panel know who their best team is, the problem is the players in the top team are not performing. And i am not willing to lay it all on the coach, because guys are failing the basics.
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.yeah, i get you are on a fucking red and black rage-a-thon at the moment, but i am not sure that's a stick you can beat him with.
He knows exactly who his preferred line up is
The problems are:
Moody and Taylor are past it. Behind Moody there isn't anyone bashing down the door. Behind Taylor Coles has been out for ages, and the next guy has his training wheels on
Whitelock has a lot of miles on teh clock and it shows, Retallick has been severly hamstrung by his time in Japan. The next guy is home having a baby, the rest are babies
In the loose, he has a hard on for Savea, because tests are won by YouTube highlight reels. He wanted Akira, but he blinked once he has a couple of low tests. Cane has been out. Everyone has been tried to varying levels of success, and not a single player saying "i am the guy"
Halfback we have one guy. TJP is rubbish. The rest are kids. Of the 5 starting halfbacks in NZ, one is ineligbile/injured
Neither 10 is gonna drive you around in a tight 1
He tried Havili as his 12 and it didn't work. His preferred partner is ALB, who for whatever reason hans't set the world on fire. Ioane is picked because we need something different there, and it's not working
He's basically run the same back 3 all year because it is workingFoster and the panel know who their best team is, the problem is the players in the top team are not performing. And i am not willing to lay it all on the coach, because guys are failing the basics.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
I am guessing but out of interest how many players has Foster used to find the right combinations in his 2 years as head coach.
50 players ? And still has no clue.yeah, i get you are on a fucking red and black rage-a-thon at the moment, but i am not sure that's a stick you can beat him with.
He knows exactly who his preferred line up is
The problems are:
Moody and Taylor are past it. Behind Moody there isn't anyone bashing down the door. Behind Taylor Coles has been out for ages, and the next guy has his training wheels on
Whitelock has a lot of miles on teh clock and it shows, Retallick has been severly hamstrung by his time in Japan. The next guy is home having a baby, the rest are babies
In the loose, he has a hard on for Savea, because tests are won by YouTube highlight reels. He wanted Akira, but he blinked once he has a couple of low tests. Cane has been out. Everyone has been tried to varying levels of success, and not a single player saying "i am the guy"
Halfback we have one guy. TJP is rubbish. The rest are kids. Of the 5 starting halfbacks in NZ, one is ineligbile/injured
Neither 10 is gonna drive you around in a tight 1
He tried Havili as his 12 and it didn't work. His preferred partner is ALB, who for whatever reason hans't set the world on fire. Ioane is picked because we need something different there, and it's not working
He's basically run the same back 3 all year because it is workingFoster and the panel know who their best team is, the problem is the players in the top team are not performing. And i am not willing to lay it all on the coach, because guys are failing the basics.
Agree with what you wrote but the majority of your post could be used as an argument to show Foster doesn't know what his best team is. Depends on how you look at it I suppose.
