Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
I would still like a team with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown in it. Though I also wouldn't mind them having a look at Barnes who did the Chiefs forwards over last couple of years and did good stuff with the Naki this year. But it doesn't make a lot of difference what we think, we not really in the know are we, and just looking from outside.
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
I would still like a team with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown in it. Though I also wouldn't mind them having a look at Barnes who did the Chiefs forwards over last couple of years and did good stuff with the Naki this year. But it doesn't make a lot of difference what we think, we not really in the know are we, and just looking from outside.
Wipe Joseph/ Brown from your mind. They have the yen and are unlikely to walk from existing arrangements.
I do agree that in an ideal world JJ on forwards and Brown on attack with Razor on strategies and management would be a fine team.
I always though Barnes was a weak spot in the Chiefs group but maybe I misunderstood his impact. -
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.
How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?Realistically Jase Ryan and Razor are a package deal. Swap him and Coventry.
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In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
you put more thought into that post than the AB did when actually appointing someone
Interesting that one of our great midfielders turned coach would have some ideas around one of the key roles in a defensive line
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@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
Can anyone say the attack looks like someone is in charge of it?
Why is nearly every other team in the world using a rush defence? Giving ground with phases and realigning to take advantage of a counterattack isn't worth it if your opposition are well-drilled and don't isolate themselves. Even worse if they're competent enough to have bodies in motion making the defence have to make decisions while they're running from one side of the field to another for a counterattack opportunity that's never going to come.
Both of them appear to be clowns so if someone else is available, competent and experienced, why wouldn't we take them? This shouldn't be a "jobs for New Zealanders only" situation. It should be "best available so the All Blacks keep winning" situation. If that means cueball comes back into the fold as defence coach, great.
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What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level. Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith. Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
It's like the best F1 team being driven by the pit crew despite having a host of great drivers available.
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@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
Could be.
His life is a journey. -
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level. Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith. Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
It's like the best F1 team being driven by the pit crew despite having a host of great drivers available.
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
At no stage did I say it was possible to replicate it at this present moment, I was merely pointing out the stark contrast. Further, none have won anything as HEAD COACHES at super level. Hope that clears things up.
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In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
I did not know that, and overall interesting post, thanks.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
and he did quite well overseas, didn't he?
I don't know very much about the success of Mooar and McLeod. -
@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
and he did quite well overseas, didn't he?
I don't know very much about the success of Mooar and McLeod.@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
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@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
Could be.
His life is a journey.@frank said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
Could be.
His life is a journey.I'm not sure if you are 5% or 95% serious but his AB teams did have some good attributes and he seems to have been very useful when not as head coach. I wonder if he had ego issues, less so a drinking problem (if an alcoholic he looked a very fit alcoholic) but I suspect he may have burnt some bridges at (old) NZRU?
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@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
@kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
thanks .. so if the assistant coaches had good previous records, I wonder if there is any other factor that can stop me looking at the head coach position (even I am sick of my Foster obsession, I don't wish the guy ill, I just don't see a big shiny trophy light at the end of the tunnel and I so want the ABs to face and beat England)...
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@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
Any Australian Rugby League defence coaches out of contract? Ireland's head coach is from RL, England's attack coach is from RL, France's defence coach is from RL. Maybe the ABs could bring in some ideas from RL too, especially if they are looking at a different, more offensive defensive system?
Or maybe a South African (sacrilege) could help either the defence or the forwards?
In terms of attack coach, Nick Evans is doing a pretty good job at Harlequins
We need to get over this intellectual parochialism when it comes to our rugby coaches. We don't own all of the game's IP and greatest minds. FFS, our greater ever era was when we had an Australian ex-Aussie Rules player as our skills coach.
Doesn’t this comment contradict itself?
I don’t think we have a block we have simply decided on others.@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
Any Australian Rugby League defence coaches out of contract? Ireland's head coach is from RL, England's attack coach is from RL, France's defence coach is from RL. Maybe the ABs could bring in some ideas from RL too, especially if they are looking at a different, more offensive defensive system?
Or maybe a South African (sacrilege) could help either the defence or the forwards?
In terms of attack coach, Nick Evans is doing a pretty good job at Harlequins
We need to get over this intellectual parochialism when it comes to our rugby coaches. We don't own all of the game's IP and greatest minds. FFS, our greater ever era was when we had an Australian ex-Aussie Rules player as our skills coach.
Doesn’t this comment contradict itself?
I don’t think we have a block we have simply decided on others.Not really - Mick the Kick was a real anomaly and we he sought a more enhanced role elsewhere in NZ rugby he was turned down basically because he was Australian. Pretty much the exception that proves the rule
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@junior and who now, will want to tie thier wagon to Foster?
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior and who now, will want to tie thier wagon to Foster?
Fair question and I don't know the answer.
However, we know from the two past head coach appointments that it helps to already be involved in the setup as an assistant. So, I think someone who has that ambition, but is probably not strong enough at this stage to form his own ticket, might be interested in getting involved now as an assistant. Assuming Foster sees out his 4 years, I can definitely see Plumtree, for example, throwing his hat into the ring to take over in 2024.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior and who now, will want to tie thier wagon to Foster?
Fair question and I don't know the answer.
However, we know from the two past head coach appointments that it helps to already be involved in the setup as an assistant. So, I think someone who has that ambition, but is probably not strong enough at this stage to form his own ticket, might be interested in getting involved now as an assistant. Assuming Foster sees out his 4 years, I can definitely see Plumtree, for example, throwing his hat into the ring to take over in 2024.
@junior yeah I thought that after I posted, although as we have seen this time, succession isnt always a good thing, sometimes the broom needs to sweep through!
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You know what fucks me off after a bit of a look at the last couple of games?
We look like a bad NRL team. Lots of one off hit ups, many with minimal support, then a bomb. Remember when we were the best team to watch on the planet?
And I say a bad NRL team because if you watched the Melbourne storm play this year, their attack was amazing, just set play after set play.
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You know what fucks me off after a bit of a look at the last couple of games?
We look like a bad NRL team. Lots of one off hit ups, many with minimal support, then a bomb. Remember when we were the best team to watch on the planet?
And I say a bad NRL team because if you watched the Melbourne storm play this year, their attack was amazing, just set play after set play.
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
You know what fucks me off after a bit of a look at the last couple of games?
We look like a bad NRL team. Lots of one off hit ups, many with minimal support, then a bomb. Remember when we were the best team to watch on the planet?
And I say a bad NRL team because if you watched the Melbourne storm play this year, their attack was amazing, just set play after set play.
A new assistant coach emerges. Should fit right in
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I wonder what the 5 Super rugby coaches would come back with if the NZRU told them to propose the game plan they would use to beat Foster's ABs. What do they believe are the weaknesses inherent in the current game plan/systems? Which individual players would they target?
If the All Blacks are at the top of the rugby pyramid in NZ, why wouldn't the NZRU utilise the coaching and analysis expertise of the top level coaches sitting just below the All Blacks. It may also help the NZRU identify if the thinking in NZ rugby is too homogenous, which would allow them to challenge the way coaches see the game.
Surely this would be a positive for the ABs? It wouldn't work for all countries because of the different contracting systems in place around the world. But NZ and Ireland have similar models, so should use it to their advantage.
I understand that the AB coaches should be able to challenge each other within the AB set up, but an independent review by their peers (and SR coaches are their peers as it is the highest level of coaching in NZ) shouldn't be about ego. It should be about challenging the current coaches to be better so that the ABs are as good as they can be.
