Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level. Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith. Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
It's like the best F1 team being driven by the pit crew despite having a host of great drivers available.
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
At no stage did I say it was possible to replicate it at this present moment, I was merely pointing out the stark contrast. Further, none have won anything as HEAD COACHES at super level. Hope that clears things up.
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In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
I did not know that, and overall interesting post, thanks.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
and he did quite well overseas, didn't he?
I don't know very much about the success of Mooar and McLeod. -
@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
and he did quite well overseas, didn't he?
I don't know very much about the success of Mooar and McLeod.@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
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@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
Could be.
His life is a journey.@frank said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
Could be.
His life is a journey.I'm not sure if you are 5% or 95% serious but his AB teams did have some good attributes and he seems to have been very useful when not as head coach. I wonder if he had ego issues, less so a drinking problem (if an alcoholic he looked a very fit alcoholic) but I suspect he may have burnt some bridges at (old) NZRU?
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@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
@kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
thanks .. so if the assistant coaches had good previous records, I wonder if there is any other factor that can stop me looking at the head coach position (even I am sick of my Foster obsession, I don't wish the guy ill, I just don't see a big shiny trophy light at the end of the tunnel and I so want the ABs to face and beat England)...
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@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
Any Australian Rugby League defence coaches out of contract? Ireland's head coach is from RL, England's attack coach is from RL, France's defence coach is from RL. Maybe the ABs could bring in some ideas from RL too, especially if they are looking at a different, more offensive defensive system?
Or maybe a South African (sacrilege) could help either the defence or the forwards?
In terms of attack coach, Nick Evans is doing a pretty good job at Harlequins
We need to get over this intellectual parochialism when it comes to our rugby coaches. We don't own all of the game's IP and greatest minds. FFS, our greater ever era was when we had an Australian ex-Aussie Rules player as our skills coach.
Doesn’t this comment contradict itself?
I don’t think we have a block we have simply decided on others.@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
Any Australian Rugby League defence coaches out of contract? Ireland's head coach is from RL, England's attack coach is from RL, France's defence coach is from RL. Maybe the ABs could bring in some ideas from RL too, especially if they are looking at a different, more offensive defensive system?
Or maybe a South African (sacrilege) could help either the defence or the forwards?
In terms of attack coach, Nick Evans is doing a pretty good job at Harlequins
We need to get over this intellectual parochialism when it comes to our rugby coaches. We don't own all of the game's IP and greatest minds. FFS, our greater ever era was when we had an Australian ex-Aussie Rules player as our skills coach.
Doesn’t this comment contradict itself?
I don’t think we have a block we have simply decided on others.Not really - Mick the Kick was a real anomaly and we he sought a more enhanced role elsewhere in NZ rugby he was turned down basically because he was Australian. Pretty much the exception that proves the rule
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@junior and who now, will want to tie thier wagon to Foster?
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior and who now, will want to tie thier wagon to Foster?
Fair question and I don't know the answer.
However, we know from the two past head coach appointments that it helps to already be involved in the setup as an assistant. So, I think someone who has that ambition, but is probably not strong enough at this stage to form his own ticket, might be interested in getting involved now as an assistant. Assuming Foster sees out his 4 years, I can definitely see Plumtree, for example, throwing his hat into the ring to take over in 2024.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior and who now, will want to tie thier wagon to Foster?
Fair question and I don't know the answer.
However, we know from the two past head coach appointments that it helps to already be involved in the setup as an assistant. So, I think someone who has that ambition, but is probably not strong enough at this stage to form his own ticket, might be interested in getting involved now as an assistant. Assuming Foster sees out his 4 years, I can definitely see Plumtree, for example, throwing his hat into the ring to take over in 2024.
@junior yeah I thought that after I posted, although as we have seen this time, succession isnt always a good thing, sometimes the broom needs to sweep through!
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You know what fucks me off after a bit of a look at the last couple of games?
We look like a bad NRL team. Lots of one off hit ups, many with minimal support, then a bomb. Remember when we were the best team to watch on the planet?
And I say a bad NRL team because if you watched the Melbourne storm play this year, their attack was amazing, just set play after set play.
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You know what fucks me off after a bit of a look at the last couple of games?
We look like a bad NRL team. Lots of one off hit ups, many with minimal support, then a bomb. Remember when we were the best team to watch on the planet?
And I say a bad NRL team because if you watched the Melbourne storm play this year, their attack was amazing, just set play after set play.
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
You know what fucks me off after a bit of a look at the last couple of games?
We look like a bad NRL team. Lots of one off hit ups, many with minimal support, then a bomb. Remember when we were the best team to watch on the planet?
And I say a bad NRL team because if you watched the Melbourne storm play this year, their attack was amazing, just set play after set play.
A new assistant coach emerges. Should fit right in
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I wonder what the 5 Super rugby coaches would come back with if the NZRU told them to propose the game plan they would use to beat Foster's ABs. What do they believe are the weaknesses inherent in the current game plan/systems? Which individual players would they target?
If the All Blacks are at the top of the rugby pyramid in NZ, why wouldn't the NZRU utilise the coaching and analysis expertise of the top level coaches sitting just below the All Blacks. It may also help the NZRU identify if the thinking in NZ rugby is too homogenous, which would allow them to challenge the way coaches see the game.
Surely this would be a positive for the ABs? It wouldn't work for all countries because of the different contracting systems in place around the world. But NZ and Ireland have similar models, so should use it to their advantage.
I understand that the AB coaches should be able to challenge each other within the AB set up, but an independent review by their peers (and SR coaches are their peers as it is the highest level of coaching in NZ) shouldn't be about ego. It should be about challenging the current coaches to be better so that the ABs are as good as they can be.
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If you can stomach a bit of reason, there was an interesting snippet
When you also consider that six of the lads entered the MIQ lottery to get off the tour – Scott Barrett and Patrick Tuipulotu were successful – then you wonder if this is the happy camp that is constantly being spoken of.
I didn't realize 6 individuals applied to get out early
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If you can stomach a bit of reason, there was an interesting snippet
When you also consider that six of the lads entered the MIQ lottery to get off the tour – Scott Barrett and Patrick Tuipulotu were successful – then you wonder if this is the happy camp that is constantly being spoken of.
I didn't realize 6 individuals applied to get out early
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
I didn't realize 6 individuals applied to get out early
It wasn't just players, there were some NZR support staff that tried too. The tour party (players and management) was bloated once they arrived in Europe.
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If you can stomach a bit of reason, there was an interesting snippet
When you also consider that six of the lads entered the MIQ lottery to get off the tour – Scott Barrett and Patrick Tuipulotu were successful – then you wonder if this is the happy camp that is constantly being spoken of.
I didn't realize 6 individuals applied to get out early
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
If you can stomach a bit of reason, there was an interesting snippet
When you also consider that six of the lads entered the MIQ lottery to get off the tour – Scott Barrett and Patrick Tuipulotu were successful – then you wonder if this is the happy camp that is constantly being spoken of.
I didn't realize 6 individuals applied to get out early
The uncharitable might even think that it is all part of a diabolical Foster plot to undermine Scott Robertson and the Crusaders ahead of the new seasonreally, is anyone actually thinking that except him?
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I reckon Razor is in an awkward situation. Let's say Foster keeps his spot until the RWC and then it's decided it's time to put him out to pasture. In the mean time the Crusaders haven't won the Super comp for a couple of years and the Blues have become the top ranked NZ side (judging by the squads a very real possibility). I wonder who will be the favourite to take the reigns then?
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I reckon Razor is in an awkward situation. Let's say Foster keeps his spot until the RWC and then it's decided it's time to put him out to pasture. In the mean time the Crusaders haven't won the Super comp for a couple of years and the Blues have become the top ranked NZ side (judging by the squads a very real possibility). I wonder who will be the favourite to take the reigns then?
@crazy-horse Must have been frustrating for him to miss out on the Lions assistant coach position because of covid.
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It's a shame Foster isn't more like Wayne Smith and reapplied for the job instead of pushing for an early rubber stamp (with people like Hanson being vocal in the media about getting on with it).
It would be good to see of Robertson had learned from his previous experience and was better prepared. Could have asked him how he would fix the current issues and to a comparsion between the two.
