All Blacks vs USA
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@crucial said in All Blacks vs USA:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs USA:
Haven't read the thread but udging by the post above others are thinking along the same lines - the biggest take from the game for me is that it is well and truly time to put TJ out to pasture.
A real shame. I thought he was going to be something special when he first came on the scene but I reckon he has never been the same since his leg injury a few years ago.
He doesn't pass with his legs!
His support play is still top notch it's the distribution that is crap.@crucial said in All Blacks vs USA:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs USA:
Haven't read the thread but udging by the post above others are thinking along the same lines - the biggest take from the game for me is that it is well and truly time to put TJ out to pasture.
A real shame. I thought he was going to be something special when he first came on the scene but I reckon he has never been the same since his leg injury a few years ago.
He doesn't pass with his legs!
His support play is still top notch it's the distribution that is crap.TJP's basic problem is that, while he is a really good rugby player, he's just not a half back. He's basically a massive under-sized flanker who has been who-horned into the halfback position to find a place for him on the field. And, because of his generally great ability to read the play, defend, run great support lines and score tries, his massive deficiencies in the technical aspects of the position that he actually plays have been glossed over. In that respect, he's actually very much like a lot of AB halfbacks in recent times - Marshall, Kelleher, Weepu, Leonard, for example, all had massive weaknesses when it came to the core technical roles of a halfback, but these were excused because they were all good rugby players. If TJP had ben contemporaries of these guys, we wouldn't be complaining about him so much. But he plays with one the best passing halfbacks of all time, so his weaknesses in that are are glaring.
@junior I have always appreciated him as a player. He has actually played pretty well at 1st five for the Canes. Good vision and pretty good kicking game. Maybe league would have accommodated his style of play. What do you guys think who watch league more? In the same vein I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size, excellent at super rugby, but would imagine he would have been a fantastic halfback.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs USA:
@junior said in All Blacks vs USA:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs USA:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs USA:
Haven't read the thread but udging by the post above others are thinking along the same lines - the biggest take from the game for me is that it is well and truly time to put TJ out to pasture.
A real shame. I thought he was going to be something special when he first came on the scene but I reckon he has never been the same since his leg injury a few years ago.
He doesn't pass with his legs!
His support play is still top notch it's the distribution that is crap.@crucial said in All Blacks vs USA:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs USA:
Haven't read the thread but udging by the post above others are thinking along the same lines - the biggest take from the game for me is that it is well and truly time to put TJ out to pasture.
A real shame. I thought he was going to be something special when he first came on the scene but I reckon he has never been the same since his leg injury a few years ago.
He doesn't pass with his legs!
His support play is still top notch it's the distribution that is crap.TJP's basic problem is that, while he is a really good rugby player, he's just not a half back. He's basically a massive under-sized flanker who has been who-horned into the halfback position to find a place for him on the field. And, because of his generally great ability to read the play, defend, run great support lines and score tries, his massive deficiencies in the technical aspects of the position that he actually plays have been glossed over. In that respect, he's actually very much like a lot of AB halfbacks in recent times - Marshall, Kelleher, Weepu, Leonard, for example, all had massive weaknesses when it came to the core technical roles of a halfback, but these were excused because they were all good rugby players. If TJP had ben contemporaries of these guys, we wouldn't be complaining about him so much. But he plays with one the best passing halfbacks of all time, so his weaknesses in that are are glaring.
I actually think he would’ve made a good go at 1st 5. Not world class but he obviously thrives with ball in hand and creating play, but without the passing from the base.
All those attributes you listed would work well at 10 without him having to possess a superior ground ball passing game.
I don't disagree with any of that, but the bolded part is particularly interesting. I wonder if his problem here is that he's too tall or maybe his legs are too long. It's a weird comment, I know, but a guy with long legs and a long stride is going to be at a bit of disadvantage when squatting down to clear the ball off the deck. He's going to be relying much more on hip hinge to get down at sweep the ball off the deck, meaning he's more likely to be off balance than a guy with shorter legs who can bend at the knees and squat much more easily. That's probably just a nerdy biomechanical way of saying that he's just not built to be a passing halfback.
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I see novices are using players running wild against USA to say other players are under threat. Let’s see Quinn against a proper team first before saying Havili is dooooomed.
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I see novices are using players running wild against USA to say other players are under threat. Let’s see Quinn against a proper team first before saying Havili is dooooomed.
@billy-tell I agree but still think Havilli is too light for the position not that Tupea is a heavyweight.
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@junior I have always appreciated him as a player. He has actually played pretty well at 1st five for the Canes. Good vision and pretty good kicking game. Maybe league would have accommodated his style of play. What do you guys think who watch league more? In the same vein I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size, excellent at super rugby, but would imagine he would have been a fantastic halfback.
@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
@junior I have always appreciated him as a player. He has actually played pretty well at 1st five for the Canes. Good vision and pretty good kicking game. Maybe league would have accommodated his style of play. What do you guys think who watch league more? In the same vein I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size, excellent at super rugby, but would imagine he would have been a fantastic halfback.
I think his passing would still have been a problem in league because they were looking at him as a hooker.
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I went back and looked specifically at George bridge . To see why he was almost invisible. Every kick off was kicked to the same side and Will Jordan caught and passed to QT. Then it went left and never got out to bridge. We then snapped back right and because they were so shit we invariably scored off that phase. The ball just didn’t go his way. As a crusaders fan I think he’s a bloody good player. As a All blacks fan I don’t think he is one of our top 5 wingers.
As for Sam Cane, the guy is a freak. If we never had the goat before him then he would be regarded as one of our best ever. Actually watch what he does off the ball. Watch how quickly he gets off the ground and back into the play. These are the things the coaches look for in a 7. -
@junior I have always appreciated him as a player. He has actually played pretty well at 1st five for the Canes. Good vision and pretty good kicking game. Maybe league would have accommodated his style of play. What do you guys think who watch league more? In the same vein I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size, excellent at super rugby, but would imagine he would have been a fantastic halfback.
@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size.
Not sure about the size argument. His lack of size didn't stop him from being outstanding against the NH sides in 2018 and he's no worse under the high ball than other players. His defence is generally pretty good to outstanding:
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I went back and looked specifically at George bridge . To see why he was almost invisible. Every kick off was kicked to the same side and Will Jordan caught and passed to QT. Then it went left and never got out to bridge. We then snapped back right and because they were so shit we invariably scored off that phase. The ball just didn’t go his way. As a crusaders fan I think he’s a bloody good player. As a All blacks fan I don’t think he is one of our top 5 wingers.
As for Sam Cane, the guy is a freak. If we never had the goat before him then he would be regarded as one of our best ever. Actually watch what he does off the ball. Watch how quickly he gets off the ground and back into the play. These are the things the coaches look for in a 7.@chchfanatic said in All Blacks vs USA:
As for Sam Cane, the guy is a freak. If we never had the goat before him then he would be regarded as one of our best ever. Actually watch what he does off the ball. Watch how quickly he gets off the ground and back into the play. These are the things the coaches look for in a 7
100% agree. Sam Cane is one of those players you only notice when he isn't playing.
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@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size.
Not sure about the size argument. His lack of size didn't stop him from being outstanding against the NH sides in 2018 and he's no worse under the high ball than other players. His defence is generally pretty good to outstanding:
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I went back and looked specifically at George bridge . To see why he was almost invisible. Every kick off was kicked to the same side and Will Jordan caught and passed to QT. Then it went left and never got out to bridge. We then snapped back right and because they were so shit we invariably scored off that phase. The ball just didn’t go his way. As a crusaders fan I think he’s a bloody good player. As a All blacks fan I don’t think he is one of our top 5 wingers.
As for Sam Cane, the guy is a freak. If we never had the goat before him then he would be regarded as one of our best ever. Actually watch what he does off the ball. Watch how quickly he gets off the ground and back into the play. These are the things the coaches look for in a 7.@chchfanatic
i thought sam went pretty well for first game .in one of the phase plays for usa he must of done 4 or 5 tackes was noticeable the difference he made -
The Herald deserves an Asterix against their match coverage today for such poor quality. It belongs in a French comic. It was Dmac who took the kick covertly before the camera could fix in. Not Richie. Bias showed in the player reviews where Dmac was blamed for US LONE try and Jordan glossed past for second. Why focus so selectively on the odd error?
In the land of the Harlem Globetrotters spectators might occasionally enjoy seeing world class skills displayed and a lot of flowing play. Hell the depleted Eagles even scored twice themselves.
I wonder if the US coverage would have mentioned that Augspurger Civetta Lopeti and Germishuys all showed up pretty well against classy opposition.
Awful coverage for any American fan to read. I guess the excuse is that it's a holiday weekend and no sub-editors available. -
@victor-meldrew But against the sides that are going to cause us problems like the Bok and perhaps England and Australia his size is an issue. But that is why I prefer Jordy.
@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
@victor-meldrew But against the sides that are going to cause us problems like the Bok and perhaps England and Australia his size is an issue. But that is why I prefer Jordy.
At the moment and on current form, JB's the man, but I wouldn't make size a criteria.
England didn't cause DMac any problems in 2018 against England - quite the opposite. He was one of the best players in that game and on that tour in general, and none of the teams he played against contained collections of midgets.
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I see novices are using players running wild against USA to say other players are under threat. Let’s see Quinn against a proper team first before saying Havili is dooooomed.
@billy-tell said in All Blacks vs USA:
I see novices are using players running wild against USA to say other players are under threat. Let’s see Quinn against a proper team first before saying Havili is dooooomed.
Kind of agree but pretty sure that against the tougher teams QT would make an extra metre or two forward and use five metres less width.
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@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size.
Not sure about the size argument. His lack of size didn't stop him from being outstanding against the NH sides in 2018 and he's no worse under the high ball than other players. His defence is generally pretty good to outstanding:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs USA:
@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
I think DMac is not an international fullback because of his size.
Not sure about the size argument. His lack of size didn't stop him from being outstanding against the NH sides in 2018 and he's no worse under the high ball than other players. His defence is generally pretty good to outstanding:
That should've been a penalty to Fiji.
DMac's still a great threat in broken play, but he's not the threat he was pre-knee injury. He was badly exposed by the American scrumhalf. In much the same way Kellaway did. This was a game that suited DMac's strengths and it showed.
USA were too shit to raw conclusions from.
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@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
@victor-meldrew But against the sides that are going to cause us problems like the Bok and perhaps England and Australia his size is an issue. But that is why I prefer Jordy.
At the moment and on current form, JB's the man, but I wouldn't make size a criteria.
England didn't cause DMac any problems in 2018 against England - quite the opposite. He was one of the best players in that game and on that tour in general, and none of the teams he played against contained collections of midgets.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs USA:
@broughie said in All Blacks vs USA:
@victor-meldrew But against the sides that are going to cause us problems like the Bok and perhaps England and Australia his size is an issue. But that is why I prefer Jordy.
At the moment and on current form, JB's the man, but I wouldn't make size a criteria.
England didn't cause DMac any problems in 2018 against England - quite the opposite. He was one of the best players in that game and on that tour in general, and none of the teams he played against contained collections of midgets.
I must be one of DMac’s biggest defenders on here especially against those that continue to make judgments based on things they saw him do years ago and not the more mature player he is now ( Nonu syndrome).
However even I can see how the smarter teams will spot him or try to put him into a position where they can run a big man at him front on.
In part it is his terrier like attitude that gets him into these positions, like defending two out from a ruck near the line rather than getting others to fill the gap.
Tenacious defender but there are times when size outranks will.
As for that England game didn’t Eddie design that set piece try that pulled him one way then immediately switched so that he was sweeping from too far away as his tackle was too little too late? -
@ARHS Some of Cully's player ratings had me puzzled too.
What about TJ saying DMac missed a conversion when he didn't?
@bovidae said in All Blacks vs USA:
@ARHS Some of Cully's player ratings had me puzzled too.
What about TJ saying DMac missed a conversion when he didn't?
I was annoyed by that because I was waiting for them to confirm he had just brought up 100 points in test rugby. The TJ put his flag up too - so I was mystified. Then they had a covert conversion next time while the cameras were elsewhere. Still no mention of the century. Don't know why DMac cops so much when he is such a positive role model for the game.
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@bovidae said in All Blacks vs USA:
@ARHS Some of Cully's player ratings had me puzzled too.
What about TJ saying DMac missed a conversion when he didn't?
I was annoyed by that because I was waiting for them to confirm he had just brought up 100 points in test rugby. The TJ put his flag up too - so I was mystified. Then they had a covert conversion next time while the cameras were elsewhere. Still no mention of the century. Don't know why DMac cops so much when he is such a positive role model for the game.
@arhs said in All Blacks vs USA:
@bovidae said in All Blacks vs USA:
@ARHS Some of Cully's player ratings had me puzzled too.
What about TJ saying DMac missed a conversion when he didn't?
I was annoyed by that because I was waiting for them to confirm he had just brought up 100 points in test rugby. The TJ put his flag up too - so I was mystified. Then they had a covert conversion next time while the cameras were elsewhere. Still no mention of the century. Don't know why DMac cops so much when he is such a positive role model for the game.
DMac plays in positions where howlers stand out and as recently as last year (I think?) he made one or two howlers, but yeah, more so when he first started, and those sort of early mistakes can be hard to shake.
I also agree he is normally a good tackler but at fb he can be pushed back, swatted away or leaped over and it is harder for him to bundle big players out over the sidelines. I'd agree the size difference hasn't mostly been a huge difference and I'd say he has played more and more consistently, but in the last game, he really did look like a 10 playing at 15 (in a good way)! And I'd agree he'd probably make a good 9 especially at the base of the ruck, seems to have quick hands.
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@arhs said in All Blacks vs USA:
@bovidae said in All Blacks vs USA:
@ARHS Some of Cully's player ratings had me puzzled too.
What about TJ saying DMac missed a conversion when he didn't?
I was annoyed by that because I was waiting for them to confirm he had just brought up 100 points in test rugby. The TJ put his flag up too - so I was mystified. Then they had a covert conversion next time while the cameras were elsewhere. Still no mention of the century. Don't know why DMac cops so much when he is such a positive role model for the game.
DMac plays in positions where howlers stand out and as recently as last year (I think?) he made one or two howlers, but yeah, more so when he first started, and those sort of early mistakes can be hard to shake.
I also agree he is normally a good tackler but at fb he can be pushed back, swatted away or leaped over and it is harder for him to bundle big players out over the sidelines. I'd agree the size difference hasn't mostly been a huge difference and I'd say he has played more and more consistently, but in the last game, he really did look like a 10 playing at 15 (in a good way)! And I'd agree he'd probably make a good 9 especially at the base of the ruck, seems to have quick hands.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs USA:
@arhs said in All Blacks vs USA:
@bovidae said in All Blacks vs USA:
@ARHS Some of Cully's player ratings had me puzzled too.
What about TJ saying DMac missed a conversion when he didn't?
I was annoyed by that because I was waiting for them to confirm he had just brought up 100 points in test rugby. The TJ put his flag up too - so I was mystified. Then they had a covert conversion next time while the cameras were elsewhere. Still no mention of the century. Don't know why DMac cops so much when he is such a positive role model for the game.
DMac plays in positions where howlers stand out and as recently as last year (I think?) he made one or two howlers, but yeah, more so when he first started, and those sort of early mistakes can be hard to shake.
I also agree he is normally a good tackler but at fb he can be pushed back, swatted away or leaped over and it is harder for him to bundle big players out over the sidelines. I'd agree the size difference hasn't mostly been a huge difference and I'd say he has played more and more consistently, but in the last game, he really did look like a 10 playing at 15 (in a good way)! And I'd agree he'd probably make a good 9 especially at the base of the ruck, seems to have quick hands.
Must be some amazing athletes out there that I haven't seen
You are missing his biggest asset. He sees space! Very much a heads up player and that be the winning of a close game.
In the past he have often gone looking to exploit it himself if no one else is there but he has tempered that with some better realisation of the %s.
As long as JB is playing well I am happy for him to be at 15 but Mac on the bench for 10 is a nice option to have. He's playing better than BB if looking at consistency.All of our 10 options have moments of brilliance and passages of averageness along with their weaknesses. RM is still a weakness in defence (we have to shuffle to cover him and these days that's a recipe for an error). Not convinced on his game management either.
BB can pull rabbits out of hats if the opportunity arises but I never feel that the rest of the backline attacks to their potential from unbroken play with him running the show.
DMacs kicking game from hand can be wayward and although he will make the tackles they usually concede metres. Of the three though I prefer his passing game and runner selection.
