All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test
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Some sober reflections, presaged by observation that TMO interventions and cards are a lottery which diminishes the product:
ABs seemed complacent to start with, but after red card actually outmuscled Irish for a period, urged on by the yapping Smith.
Thought Irish 'deserved' to be up 10 at HT, but TBF ABs really fought well to claw back 7.
In fact, the game was lost in the 10 minutes BBBR was off with HIA. During that period go forward suffered. PT's weak scrummaging at LH, allied to Scooter's shoulder too high on Ofa's rump meant our scrum stuttered, and two bad calls led to 10 points, which could otherwise easily have seem ABs camped in Irish half.
From then on we seemed to have the nudge, but failure of TMO to see Sami T grounding (it was try on balance of probabilities but certainly not compelling evidence without the behind goal line angle) mean invaluable time burned and conversion wasn't a gimme. Small margins.
In other words, a game the Blacks weren't that far away from winning.
However, such losses uncover weaknesses, and here ABs reminiscent of Blues in SF final.
In the modern game there are always going to be soft penalties, and they tend to favour the attacking side. Also cards very positional: if Ofa tackled Ringrose (my MOTM for drawing two cards) 10 yards from our line would that have been more than penalty?
What Ireland identified, as did Razor, is that if you're playing mainly within oppo half the reffing lottery will fall your way.
ABs and Blues made common mistake of trying to play too much rugby in own half. Irish kicking was designed to repel us back to halfway whenever we got near 22. They actually structured their patterns around that to create correct angles for kicks to be effective.
Added to fact that their chasers were excellent and ours mediocre.
The annoying thing is that Jordie seems perfect to deal with this, so long as team adopts correct tactical approach. -
@Steve said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
The team is in fucking rag order. The culture looks shite too. From all the social media its all basketball jerseys, slang and shite haircuts. They all need a boot up the fucking hole.
Welcome aboard. Some great points.
If that's true and is causing issues, then who is responsible for allowing that culture to take root and how do we fix it?
I think there is a whiff of "substitute teacher syndrome" off the team.
I'd say a fair few of the players (if not all) know Razor should have got the job.
The Crusaders lads are receiving better coaching at club than country and a few of them can't make the national team over lads they regularly beast in Super Rugby.Similarly I think a fair few reckon Cane shouldn't be captain or starting 7.
*dropping him in 2019 was a massive mistake though. He does add starch to the defence.Then we have a revolving door of lads "having a go" at the positional buffet.
"Jordie have a go on the wing there son".
"No lets play with dual pivots, Beaudy jump in at FB there you little scamp"
"Hey Rieko , Fancy a go in the centres?"
"lets play ALB and Goodhue the wrong way around".Less said about the back row the better.
Everything about the team feels so temporary and there are no stalwarts or incumbents beyond the same oul lads who got manhandled in Tokyo.
Thats why someone like Laumape was a silly one to let go. Sometimes you need to be able to just drop it off hospital style to a jagged elbowed ball of energy to make you a guaranteed 4/5 yards and reset.
We have fifteen 7's players at the moment all sea gulling in the wide channels.
The Maori played with more testicular fortitude.
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Some sober reflections, presaged by observation that TMO interventions and cards are a lottery which diminishes the product:
ABs seemed complacent to start with, but after red card actually outmuscled Irish for a period, urged on by the yapping Smith.
Thought Irish 'deserved' to be up 10 at HT, but TBF ABs really fought well to claw back 7.
In fact, the game was lost in the 10 minutes BBBR was off with HIA. During that period go forward suffered. PT's weak scrummaging at LH, allied to Scooter's shoulder too high on Ofa's rump meant our scrum stuttered, and two bad calls led to 10 points, which could otherwise easily have seem ABs camped in Irish half.
From then on we seemed to have the nudge, but failure of TMO to see Sami T grounding (it was try on balance of probabilities but certainly not compelling evidence without the behind goal line angle) mean invaluable time burned and conversion wasn't a gimme. Small margins.
In other words, a game the Blacks weren't that far away from winning.
However, such losses uncover weaknesses, and here ABs reminiscent of Blues in SF final.
In the modern game there are always going to be soft penalties, and they tend to favour the attacking side. Also cards very positional: if Ofa tackled Ringrose (my MOTM for drawing two cards) 10 yards from our line would that have been more than penalty?
What Ireland identified, as did Razor, is that if you're playing mainly within oppo half the reffing lottery will fall your way.
ABs and Blues made common mistake of trying to play too much rugby in own half. Irish kicking was designed to repel us back to halfway whenever we got near 22. They actually structured their patterns around that to create correct angles for kicks to be effective.
Added to fact that their chasers were excellent and ours mediocre.
The annoying thing is that Jordie seems perfect to deal with this, so long as team adopts correct tactical approach. -
@Steve said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Hi Folks,
Im new to these pastures.
Here is my two cents for what its worth.
Peyper got all 3 big calls wrong for me.
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Ofa should have been a yellow and penalty try.
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Leicesters was fine for me. Rugby incident. Tiddlywinks etc. To suggest there was intent is disingenuous
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The head clash red is an absolutely farcical call. People paying 150 odd dollars to watch a game see it reduced to that nonsense and then Ardie Savea is collateral damage in the ensuing mess. They are ruining the sport with this garbage. SBW on Anthony Watson is a red.....this isn't.
LF looks a bit slow. I think Clarke can do everything LF can do but has more gas. Rieko isn't a centres arsehole but has improved to be fair. 3 years on from RWC 2019 we still don't know the starting front row, back row, or centres. You could make a case for only Whitelock, Jordan and Aaron Smith being nailed on. Although in Jordans case he should be the fullback.
The team is in fucking rag order. The culture looks shite too. From all the social media its all basketball jerseys, slang and shite haircuts. They all need a boot up the fucking hole.
Grace and Blackadder will become mainstays in the not too distant future. Vaii needs a chance to start instead of one of the veterans.
Id have had Romano as the stop gap over Tuipolutu today . PT is a joke of a player....powder puff.
ST should be starting hooker. Makes Mealamu esque hard yards with footwork before contact.
Mo'unga got absolutely rag dolled out there a few times today. He looked like a boy against men.
Laumape would be useful to have around the last few years.
My silk purse out of a sows ear backline......
- Smith
- Barrett
- Clarke
- Jordie
- Rieko
- Reece
- Jordan
The Irish are a very functional team but pretty blunt. More perspiration than inspiration. They know their jobs and do them well to be fair.
Not sure about their attacking lines though...lazy runners and shepherding/obstruction all over the place. Sexton is passing the ball to players behind a wall of green shirts.
As an aside they (the Irish) are turning into a pretty classless bunch. Sexton wants a conference with the ref on every call. Even going back to the previous encounters such as the Autumn game where Coles was heard saying "jeez he's a mouthy fluffybunny" about Sexton on the ref mic.
O'Mahony hit a player late after Aki's try last week. Today he started a schmozzle and was the one doing all the mouthing. Sexton gave Cane a spray last week after Ringrose gave him a rib tickler and today after Porters try Sexton was down shouting haaaaaaaaaa in Aaron Smiths face. There is also a lot of South Africa-esque rest taking place between play. Feigning injury etc. O'Mahony main culprit. Todays game took over 2 hours.I agree with all of this. Someone needs to find Reiko Ioanes barber, knock him out, revive him and knock him out again for good measure. Just an awful do.
Things have improved though, Patrick Tuipulotu didn’t come on the field with pink hair at least.
@MN5 I think it was in Cory Janes book, where he said himself Carter and McCaw had come down for the hotel breakfast in singlets and Mealamu sent them back up their room to put on t-shirts as their attire was inappropriate.
Pedantic yes. Outdated probably, but it speaks to a culture where there was respect and a hierarchy.
At the moment there is a load of sunshine boys of the "churr bro" ilk.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bones not if its a rule, doesn't have to make sense.
Who rules who plays where then? I'm really not following you.
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@MN5 I think it was in Cory Janes book, where he said himself Carter and McCaw had come down for the hotel breakfast in singlets and Mealamu sent them back up their room to put on t-shirts as their attire was inappropriate.
Pedantic yes. Outdated probably, but it speaks to a culture where there was respect and a hierarchy.
At the moment there is a load of sunshine boys of the "churr bro" ilk.
@Steve said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MN5 I think it was in Cory Janes book, where he said himself Carter and McCaw had come down for the hotel breakfast in singlets and Mealamu sent them back up their room to put on t-shirts as their attire was inappropriate.
Pedantic yes. Outdated probably, but it speaks to a culture where there was respect and a hierarchy.
At the moment there is a load of sunshine boys of the "churr bro" ilk.
You might enjoy this read:
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/the-cultural-shift-thats-helped-transform-the-all-blacks/
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Man, that was a total heap of shit wasn't it?
Bad reffing - the card situation needs to be sorted out as it is turning games into lotteries, but the ruck cleanouts? Those guys were hit as part of the ruck, and as part of the clean moved past the ruck - because they were good cleans. It's not like they were held down afterwards or anything. Crazy stuff.
I think Ta'avao was unlucky. To me that was clearly an accident, therefore not foul play, therefore yellow only?
Ofa on the other hand, that was deliberate, and lucky to get off so lightly. Overall that's the worst game from an AB prop I can remember. Having said that, James Lowe did basically the same thing in midfield and it was penalty only?
Our coaching staff are just fucking thick, and arrogant to go with it. That's all there is to it. Our shit gameplan of kicking the ball away in midfield doesn't work. It doesn't work because they're ready for it, they are solid under the high ball, and they shield exceptionally well. I personally think they shield illegally, but if it's legal then fine, but why the hell aren't we doing it too? Their guys receiving kicks are protected by 3-4 players 'retreating', and our guys are in a contest every time they're receiving a kick - it's laughable. Every Irish player is trying to rip the ball out in tackles. For us, almost nobody, and our ball-carriers don't even look like they're expecting it. Why?
The whole hubris of this 'small margins', 'a few tweaks needed' bullshit fills me with rage. It's like the arrogance regarding the 50-22 rule, when Foster said something along the lines of 'haven't really looked at that, rugby is a simple game, we'll just concentrate on doing what we do'. Fuck my days you gobshite moron. It's a significant rule change, and if you can't be bothered to have a think about that, then I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you can't be arsed having a look at what other teams are doing and taking a few ideas from them, or y'know, coming up witha plan to counter what we all know they're going to do.
The worst thing is that now we have a decider, the silly fluffybunny is going to go into his shell and select all the same players because it's a must-win and he thinks he can't afford to throw new guys in there. And look, we're at home, our team will be fired up, the Irish are going to be pretty knackered - so we are still favourites to win it - but then we've again made zero fucking progress and he can pretend that everything is sweet and it was just the cards that were the problem.
Anyway, as others have said Bower was good. Taylor should have been gone last year, not sure why we're still talking about this. Ofa, FML enough said.
I thought Retallick wasn't too bad to be honest - not his peak, but he did some good stuff and I don't think he was outplayed. We missed Whitelock though. Barret some good some bad as always.
Ardie Savea did nothing until he was off. Normally he does stuff in the last 20 mins, but didn't get the chance. Sam Cane was pretty good, lots of tackling - he is just a harder-tackling Reuben Thorne though. Dalton was disappointingly anonymous.
Aaron Smith was again exceptional. The workrate when we were down players was incredible really.
Barrett, jesus. I don't know whether to blame him or the gameplan - it's probably both - but I am just so sick of us giving away all the possession and territory in every game.
Tupaea had a shit game after a very good game last week. Rieko anonymous.
Reece was bloody good, seems to just keep improving. Jordie Barrett was mediocre, Leicester had a shocker. -
Man, that was a total heap of shit wasn't it?
Bad reffing - the card situation needs to be sorted out as it is turning games into lotteries, but the ruck cleanouts? Those guys were hit as part of the ruck, and as part of the clean moved past the ruck - because they were good cleans. It's not like they were held down afterwards or anything. Crazy stuff.
I think Ta'avao was unlucky. To me that was clearly an accident, therefore not foul play, therefore yellow only?
Ofa on the other hand, that was deliberate, and lucky to get off so lightly. Overall that's the worst game from an AB prop I can remember. Having said that, James Lowe did basically the same thing in midfield and it was penalty only?
Our coaching staff are just fucking thick, and arrogant to go with it. That's all there is to it. Our shit gameplan of kicking the ball away in midfield doesn't work. It doesn't work because they're ready for it, they are solid under the high ball, and they shield exceptionally well. I personally think they shield illegally, but if it's legal then fine, but why the hell aren't we doing it too? Their guys receiving kicks are protected by 3-4 players 'retreating', and our guys are in a contest every time they're receiving a kick - it's laughable. Every Irish player is trying to rip the ball out in tackles. For us, almost nobody, and our ball-carriers don't even look like they're expecting it. Why?
The whole hubris of this 'small margins', 'a few tweaks needed' bullshit fills me with rage. It's like the arrogance regarding the 50-22 rule, when Foster said something along the lines of 'haven't really looked at that, rugby is a simple game, we'll just concentrate on doing what we do'. Fuck my days you gobshite moron. It's a significant rule change, and if you can't be bothered to have a think about that, then I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you can't be arsed having a look at what other teams are doing and taking a few ideas from them, or y'know, coming up witha plan to counter what we all know they're going to do.
The worst thing is that now we have a decider, the silly fluffybunny is going to go into his shell and select all the same players because it's a must-win and he thinks he can't afford to throw new guys in there. And look, we're at home, our team will be fired up, the Irish are going to be pretty knackered - so we are still favourites to win it - but then we've again made zero fucking progress and he can pretend that everything is sweet and it was just the cards that were the problem.
Anyway, as others have said Bower was good. Taylor should have been gone last year, not sure why we're still talking about this. Ofa, FML enough said.
I thought Retallick wasn't too bad to be honest - not his peak, but he did some good stuff and I don't think he was outplayed. We missed Whitelock though. Barret some good some bad as always.
Ardie Savea did nothing until he was off. Normally he does stuff in the last 20 mins, but didn't get the chance. Sam Cane was pretty good, lots of tackling - he is just a harder-tackling Reuben Thorne though. Dalton was disappointingly anonymous.
Aaron Smith was again exceptional. The workrate when we were down players was incredible really.
Barrett, jesus. I don't know whether to blame him or the gameplan - it's probably both - but I am just so sick of us giving away all the possession and territory in every game.
Tupaea had a shit game after a very good game last week. Rieko anonymous.
Reece was bloody good, seems to just keep improving. Jordie Barrett was mediocre, Leicester had a shocker.@reprobate said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
The whole hubris of this 'small margins', 'a few tweaks needed' bullshit fills me with rage. It's like the arrogance regarding the 50-22 rule, when Foster said something along the lines of 'haven't really looked at that, rugby is a simple game, we'll just concentrate on doing what we do'. Fuck my days you gobshite moron. It's a significant rule change, and if you can't be bothered to have a think about that, then I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you can't be arsed having a look at what other teams are doing and taking a few ideas from them, or y'know, coming up witha plan to counter what we all know they're going to do.
His response to the 50-22 rule change is a perfect example of either their insistence on keeping their powder dry, or just how much of a clown he is.
I want it to be the former but let's be honest it's far more likely to be the latter.
Or a combination where they unveil the "super plan" at the world cup that's not been seen or analysed by the opposition but it fails anyway because it hasn't been adequately tested under match conditions.
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Geez reprobate, calm down mate, lol. Can I make a suggestion, if comments or anything fill you with rage, perhaps you shouldn't follow the GAME. I would honestly not follow any sport that upset ne as it a pastime, I followed the game as a one eyed AB supporter etc for 60 odd years, but if it ever got me into a rage, I wouldb't bother!
FFS we lost a test, thought we played poorly and had our arses handed to us on a plate by a very good team, but notthing any sane person should get into a rage over! It's almsot like the shit that happened with death threats to John Hart etc after we knocked out of WC, we got some peole who really need help!
I would say the same to supporter of any team. Boks lost tp Wales for first time in SA on weekemd. Italy got beaten by Georgia, I would hope there supporters aren't getting into a rage tc. or it;s time to shut sport down. It
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Geez reprobate, calm down mate, lol. Can I make a suggestion, if comments or anything fill you with rage, perhaps you shouldn't follow the GAME. I would honestly not follow any sport that upset ne as it a pastime, I followed the game as a one eyed AB supporter etc for 60 odd years, but if it ever got me into a rage, I wouldb't bother!
FFS we lost a test, thought we played poorly and had our arses handed to us on a plate by a very good team, but notthing any sane person should get into a rage over! It's almsot like the shit that happened with death threats to John Hart etc after we knocked out of WC, we got some peole who really need help!
I would say the same to supporter of any team. Boks lost tp Wales for first time in SA on weekemd. Italy got beaten by Georgia, I would hope there supporters aren't getting into a rage tc. or it;s time to shut sport down. It
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@Dan54 It's a pretty harmless rant on the fern sort of rage mate, i wouldn't bother getting too concerned.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 It's a pretty harmless rant on the fern sort of rage mate, i wouldn't bother getting too concerned.
If we removed all the harmless rants, the fern would crumble....
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@Frank said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Clean out time for the 3rd test. (welcome to my fantasy world)
Foster and his entire coaching group fired, replaced by Scott Robertson with Joe Schmidt kept on.Team.
15 Jordie (there for kicking game but better improve decision making pronto - he takes all line kicks following penalties)
14 Will Jordan or Reece
13 Reiko
12 Goodhue
11 Clarke
10 Barrett last chance or to be replaced by Perofeta (Beauden, show us you can kick accurately in play - you've only had years to improve this aspect of your game)
9 Smith (Fakatava as sub)
8 Sotutu (fuck off Ardie you ruck shy highlights reel)
7 Papalii
6 Akira (bring the hurt Akira or you are to be replaced by Grace)
5 Whitelock (captain)
4 Barrett
3 Fletcher Newell / Tamaiti Williams
2 Samisoni
1 BowerNone of this will happen of course.
And then you pick one of the most disappointing players in NZ rugby at 6. Robertson would never select Akira Ioane, the guy is a dud.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Clean out time for the 3rd test. (welcome to my fantasy world)
Foster and his entire coaching group fired, replaced by Scott Robertson with Joe Schmidt kept on.Team.
15 Jordie (there for kicking game but better improve decision making pronto - he takes all line kicks following penalties)
14 Will Jordan or Reece
13 Reiko
12 Goodhue
11 Clarke
10 Barrett last chance or to be replaced by Perofeta (Beauden, show us you can kick accurately in play - you've only had years to improve this aspect of your game)
9 Smith (Fakatava as sub)
8 Sotutu (fuck off Ardie you ruck shy highlights reel)
7 Papalii
6 Akira (bring the hurt Akira or you are to be replaced by Grace)
5 Whitelock (captain)
4 Barrett
3 Fletcher Newell / Tamaiti Williams
2 Samisoni
1 BowerNone of this will happen of course.
And then you pick one of the most disappointing players in NZ rugby at 6. Robertson would never select Akira Ioane, the guy is a dud.
You spelt Ardie Savea wrong
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@MrDenmore I don’t think the World Cup is out of the question. It’s a tournament that really doesn’t have much bearing on what happens prior to it starting.
Teams that have made the final or even won it have had varied success in the year or two leading up.
And in these tournaments, unpredictable stuff happens that can turn for better or worst.
I’m more in the camp that there are too many factors at play to judge the here and now and equate that to success or failure at a tournament next year.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MrDenmore I don’t think the World Cup is out of the question. It’s a tournament that really doesn’t have much bearing on what happens prior to it starting.
Teams that have made the final or even won it have had varied success in the year or two leading up.
And in these tournaments, unpredictable stuff happens that can turn for better or worst.
I’m more in the camp that there are too many factors at play to judge the here and now and equate that to success or failure at a tournament next year.
Agree with this ACT. The issue for NZers is we've always got to be the best, and we've found at RWCs the teams that beat us get up for ONE big performance. So we have to be the best for multiple games.
This made more sense inside my head.
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Geez reprobate, calm down mate, lol. Can I make a suggestion, if comments or anything fill you with rage, perhaps you shouldn't follow the GAME. I would honestly not follow any sport that upset ne as it a pastime, I followed the game as a one eyed AB supporter etc for 60 odd years, but if it ever got me into a rage, I wouldb't bother!
FFS we lost a test, thought we played poorly and had our arses handed to us on a plate by a very good team, but notthing any sane person should get into a rage over! It's almsot like the shit that happened with death threats to John Hart etc after we knocked out of WC, we got some peole who really need help!
I would say the same to supporter of any team. Boks lost tp Wales for first time in SA on weekemd. Italy got beaten by Georgia, I would hope there supporters aren't getting into a rage tc. or it;s time to shut sport down. It
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Geez reprobate, calm down mate, lol. Can I make a suggestion, if comments or anything fill you with rage, perhaps you shouldn't follow the GAME. I would honestly not follow any sport that upset ne as it a pastime, I followed the game as a one eyed AB supporter etc for 60 odd years, but if it ever got me into a rage, I wouldb't bother!
FFS we lost a test, thought we played poorly and had our arses handed to us on a plate by a very good team, but notthing any sane person should get into a rage over! It's almsot like the shit that happened with death threats to John Hart etc after we knocked out of WC, we got some peole who really need help!
I would say the same to supporter of any team. Boks lost tp Wales for first time in SA on weekemd. Italy got beaten by Georgia, I would hope there supporters aren't getting into a rage tc. or it;s time to shut sport down. It
I'm not really sure why you follow the ABs? You don't care if we win or lose, and your default response to any poster doing analysis on the players and coaches is that they are just some random on the internet that doesn't know what they are talking about because they are not in the inner circles of the ABs. Which is just complete bullshit on so many levels, I just can't stand the "well the AB coaches know more than us so just accept their decision" posts on here, they add absolutely nothing to the discussion.
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Geez reprobate, calm down mate, lol. Can I make a suggestion, if comments or anything fill you with rage, perhaps you shouldn't follow the GAME. I would honestly not follow any sport that upset ne as it a pastime, I followed the game as a one eyed AB supporter etc for 60 odd years, but if it ever got me into a rage, I wouldb't bother!
FFS we lost a test, thought we played poorly and had our arses handed to us on a plate by a very good team, but notthing any sane person should get into a rage over! It's almsot like the shit that happened with death threats to John Hart etc after we knocked out of WC, we got some peole who really need help!
I would say the same to supporter of any team. Boks lost tp Wales for first time in SA on weekemd. Italy got beaten by Georgia, I would hope there supporters aren't getting into a rage tc. or it;s time to shut sport down. It
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Geez reprobate, calm down mate, lol.
He's calm compared to what I want to type!
You win some, you lose some. But when you lose when you used to win, you need to examine what caused it. And Foster simply does not do that. That angers me. A quiet, steaming anger that has been building since he was appointed.
He is leader of one of the best professional teams/franchises on the planet. You expect a fully professional attitude from him. Yet nothing is his fault, even when a disaster unfolds in front of his eyes. He doesn't do what he expects his players to do -- look at their game, see the issues and fix them.
It's not that we are average. It's that nothing is changing, and so we see the same average things time and time again.
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With the world cup, due to the draw, we will have to beat, probably, Ireland, France, SA. Last few years we're at 33% there, we used to have positive ratios against everyone. Not in the foster zone
@Machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
With the world cup, due to the draw, we will have to beat, probably, Ireland, France, SA. Last few years we're at 33% there, we used to have positive ratios against everyone. Not in the foster zone
All three of those teams will be pretty confident of a win against us, that certainly wasn't the case before.
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James Lowe's headshot on Jordie Barrett is conveniently being brushed under the carpet too in many quarters.
Peyper only reffed one team.
@Steve said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
James Lowe's headshot on Jordie Barrett is conveniently being brushed under the carpet too in many quarters.
Peyper only reffed one team.
Yeah the dirty fluffybunny put a clothesline on him in frustration after dropping the ball. 100% a penalty at least.
