All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think the point is more that, of the things the loose forwards have to cover, Ardie at 8 means less bruiser and less height, so close meters and lineout deficiencies as a trio. Because 8s are generally taller and heavier. Not saying I agree, but that's the simplified argument as I understand it
@Machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think the point is more that, of the things the loose forwards have to cover, Ardie at 8 means less bruiser and less height, so close meters and lineout deficiencies as a trio. Because 8s are generally taller and heavier. Not saying I agree, but that's the simplified argument as I understand it
I wonder if Ardie's athleticism confuses those with ideas of what makes a traditional 8.
Read had good athleticism for a while but nowhere near the levels of Ardie.
Read was used more in the lineout I admit but if 'bruiser' is a criteria I never saw him as one of those. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back as will a large lump at 8
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@Chris-B Sotutu starting with Ardie on the bench makes so much sense to me, but just won't happen.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Chris-B Sotutu starting with Ardie on the bench makes so much sense to me, but just won't happen.
I just don't get this. If Ardie is 'best in the world' at 8 why bench him. If it's because he is versatile, that versatility is still there either way.
I just don't get why people can't handle an 8/7 as they do an 8/6 or a 6/8
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back as will a large lump at 8
@Duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back as will a large lump at 8
Fetchers are almost redundant under current interpretations.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Chris-B Sotutu starting with Ardie on the bench makes so much sense to me, but just won't happen.
I just don't get this. If Ardie is 'best in the world' at 8 why bench him. If it's because he is versatile, that versatility is still there either way.
I just don't get why people can't handle an 8/7 as they do an 8/6 or a 6/8
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Chris-B Sotutu starting with Ardie on the bench makes so much sense to me, but just won't happen.
I just don't get this. If Ardie is 'best in the world' at 8 why bench him. If it's because he is versatile, that versatility is still there either way.
I just don't get why people can't handle an 8/7 as they do an 8/6 or a 6/8
Not his versatility, I think his high energy but less physical style of play is well suited to coming off the bench with 30 to go against tired players. If it wasn't for Sotutu I'd want Ardie starting, but Sotutu has the potential to be a world class 8, which would allow us to use Ardie as a weapon off the bench. I don't like the idea that benching him means I don't rate him - I think he would be a genuine match winner coming on fresh in the 2nd 40.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Chris-B Sotutu starting with Ardie on the bench makes so much sense to me, but just won't happen.
I just don't get this. If Ardie is 'best in the world' at 8 why bench him. If it's because he is versatile, that versatility is still there either way.
I just don't get why people can't handle an 8/7 as they do an 8/6 or a 6/8
Not his versatility, I think his high energy but less physical style of play is well suited to coming off the bench with 30 to go against tired players. If it wasn't for Sotutu I'd want Ardie starting, but Sotutu has the potential to be a world class 8, which would allow us to use Ardie as a weapon off the bench. I don't like the idea that benching him means I don't rate him - I think he would be a genuine match winner coming on fresh in the 2nd 40.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Chris-B Sotutu starting with Ardie on the bench makes so much sense to me, but just won't happen.
I just don't get this. If Ardie is 'best in the world' at 8 why bench him. If it's because he is versatile, that versatility is still there either way.
I just don't get why people can't handle an 8/7 as they do an 8/6 or a 6/8
Not his versatility, I think his high energy but less physical style of play is well suited to coming off the bench with 30 to go against tired players. If it wasn't for Sotutu I'd want Ardie starting, but Sotutu has the potential to be a world class 8, which would allow us to use Ardie as a weapon off the bench. I don't like the idea that benching him means I don't rate him - I think he would be a genuine match winner coming on fresh in the 2nd 40.
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two. Both attract the use of energy from the opposition.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Chris-B Sotutu starting with Ardie on the bench makes so much sense to me, but just won't happen.
I just don't get this. If Ardie is 'best in the world' at 8 why bench him. If it's because he is versatile, that versatility is still there either way.
I just don't get why people can't handle an 8/7 as they do an 8/6 or a 6/8
Not his versatility, I think his high energy but less physical style of play is well suited to coming off the bench with 30 to go against tired players. If it wasn't for Sotutu I'd want Ardie starting, but Sotutu has the potential to be a world class 8, which would allow us to use Ardie as a weapon off the bench. I don't like the idea that benching him means I don't rate him - I think he would be a genuine match winner coming on fresh in the 2nd 40.
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two. Both attract the use of energy from the opposition.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two
perhaps you're just confused
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@Duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back as will a large lump at 8
Fetchers are almost redundant under current interpretations.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back in to fashion as will a large lump at 8
Fetchers are almost redundant under current interpretations.
i would say the exact opposite, i feel other countries are much better at jackling, they've perfected getting on the ball the second they're allowed....and we're just..."no one does that anymore"
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two
perhaps you're just confused
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two
perhaps you're just confused
Does Sotutu's shoulder scare people? I very much doubt it. No better or worse than Ardie IMO.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two
perhaps you're just confused
Does Sotutu's shoulder scare people? I very much doubt it. No better or worse than Ardie IMO.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two
perhaps you're just confused
Does Sotutu's shoulder scare people? I very much doubt it. No better or worse than Ardie IMO.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I don't see any difference in physicality between the two
perhaps you're just confused
Does Sotutu's shoulder scare people? I very much doubt it. No better or worse than Ardie IMO.
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@mariner4life got some evidence to back that up Mr Smarty-Gif-Mouth
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life got some evidence to back that up Mr Smarty-Gif-Mouth
back what up? my reply to your absolute fucking guess that has no fucking basis at all?
Get over yourself
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back in to fashion as will a large lump at 8
Fetchers are almost redundant under current interpretations.
i would say the exact opposite, i feel other countries are much better at jackling, they've perfected getting on the ball the second they're allowed....and we're just..."no one does that anymore"
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back in to fashion as will a large lump at 8
Fetchers are almost redundant under current interpretations.
i would say the exact opposite, i feel other countries are much better at jackling, they've perfected getting on the ball the second they're allowed....and we're just..."no one does that anymore"
That's totally untrue. We get as many turnover's or win penalties as others in that area. Every player is expected to be able to do it now. The days of Pocockwomble type turnover hunters are gone as the opportunities are less.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life got some evidence to back that up Mr Smarty-Gif-Mouth
back what up? my reply to your absolute fucking guess that has no fucking basis at all?
Get over yourself
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life got some evidence to back that up Mr Smarty-Gif-Mouth
back what up? my reply to your absolute fucking guess that has no fucking basis at all?
Get over yourself
You seem to be guessing that Sotutu is a far more physically dominant player than Savea yourself. I am asking where that assumption comes from.
Nothing to get over. It's one of those fern myths that get said enough times they become true and this one paints a picture of a lightweight 8 that lacks physicality. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back in to fashion as will a large lump at 8
Fetchers are almost redundant under current interpretations.
i would say the exact opposite, i feel other countries are much better at jackling, they've perfected getting on the ball the second they're allowed....and we're just..."no one does that anymore"
That's totally untrue. We get as many turnover's or win penalties as others in that area. Every player is expected to be able to do it now. The days of Pocockwomble type turnover hunters are gone as the opportunities are less.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Duluth said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Crucial whether Ardie's best spot at 8 is irrelevent in the sense that him playing at 8 still affects the balance of our loosies.
That said, the growth of DP in the past year as a player and leader, playing at 6 has some appeal, this could be awesome, or, well, not....
Explain.
Seems to me that traditional loose forward roles have been moved past.I think it's just that the roles change over time. Some of the Ardie debate gives me flashbacks to the Rodney So'oialo arguments on the fern
If peak Read was around he'd probably be playing 6 etc
At some stage tactics will change and an out an out fetcher at 7 will come back in to fashion as will a large lump at 8
Fetchers are almost redundant under current interpretations.
i would say the exact opposite, i feel other countries are much better at jackling, they've perfected getting on the ball the second they're allowed....and we're just..."no one does that anymore"
That's totally untrue. We get as many turnover's or win penalties as others in that area. Every player is expected to be able to do it now. The days of Pocockwomble type turnover hunters are gone as the opportunities are less.
have to agree to disagree, of course everyone is expect to do it but i still think there are real specialists out there and we have suffered at their hands, especially with players like savea out there who are great at making the half break, but then risk getting isolated and become a sitting duck for these guys
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It's not really about individuals, it's about the balance of the team.
Rugby is a game of physical dominance and winning the collisions. Up to a point, big men help you do that in every position (for obvious reasons you're not going to play Ben Tameifuna on the wing). If you have too many little men - even in the backs - you're likely to start losing too many collisions - and worst of all losing consecutive collisions.
Same deal applies - according to my theory of rugby - in the loose forwards. You end up with too many collisions where it's big man on medium-sized man - and the medium-sized man doesn't quite have the angle to get his shoulder in perfectly to make his trademark big hit and he loses an extra few inches.
And you keep doing this enough times in the game - eventually the opposition is going to score.
And it's not just in general play. You're giving away a few kgs in the scrum and the maul, you're giving away a few inches at the lineout. And it all matters in the game of inches.
It's why the AB coaches are regularly trying to pack a few more kgs onto their players (to the absolute tipping point where it starts to compromise their performance elsewhere). Those few extra kgs matter.
Our gold standard loose forward trio is Kaino, McCaw, Read. They solved the problems that beset Collins McCaw and Rodney (especially in the lineout - our hookers didn't suddenly learn to throw, we gave them better targets).
I don't believe we're setting a new fashion. I don't believe anyone would pick this new fashion over our gold standard.
We just don't have players of gold standard dimensions (at 6 & 8 ) who are of proven gold standard quality. We re doing the best we can with what we have.
I'll tell you what I do like, though - is Papali'i is pretty close to gold standard quality at 7 - and he's significantly bigger than McCaw!
Go to it!!!
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I think most pro players now are trained in the jackal and you will often see backs getting just as many jackals as the 7 now. I don't have the stats, but it wouldn't surprise me that it is shared around more than it once was.
I think what is changing is it can be a bit risky going full on for the jackal when it's not on, we saw a lot of players being penalised for hands in front, not releasing and not supporting weight and of course you lose a player on D. Kirifi springs to mind as someone who was a little overzealous and often got pinged more than most.
I do like the recent move towards counter rucking and moving past the ball, it seems like a better percentage play as you are less likely to get penalised.
I think a 7's role has changed slightly that they should be very dominant in the tackle area and need to protect the 10 in that close channel which is Canes core strength. They should also be good with ball in hand to make those post contact metres which is where Paps shines. Yes, they should try to jackal but they are so much more than that these days.
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It's not really about individuals, it's about the balance of the team.
Rugby is a game of physical dominance and winning the collisions. Up to a point, big men help you do that in every position (for obvious reasons you're not going to play Ben Tameifuna on the wing). If you have too many little men - even in the backs - you're likely to start losing too many collisions - and worst of all losing consecutive collisions.
Same deal applies - according to my theory of rugby - in the loose forwards. You end up with too many collisions where it's big man on medium-sized man - and the medium-sized man doesn't quite have the angle to get his shoulder in perfectly to make his trademark big hit and he loses an extra few inches.
And you keep doing this enough times in the game - eventually the opposition is going to score.
And it's not just in general play. You're giving away a few kgs in the scrum and the maul, you're giving away a few inches at the lineout. And it all matters in the game of inches.
It's why the AB coaches are regularly trying to pack a few more kgs onto their players (to the absolute tipping point where it starts to compromise their performance elsewhere). Those few extra kgs matter.
Our gold standard loose forward trio is Kaino, McCaw, Read. They solved the problems that beset Collins McCaw and Rodney (especially in the lineout - our hookers didn't suddenly learn to throw, we gave them better targets).
I don't believe we're setting a new fashion. I don't believe anyone would pick this new fashion over our gold standard.
We just don't have players of gold standard dimensions (at 6 & 8 ) who are of proven gold standard quality. We re doing the best we can with what we have.
I'll tell you what I do like, though - is Papali'i is pretty close to gold standard quality at 7 - and he's significantly bigger than McCaw!
Go to it!!!
@Chris-B I think it was a no brainer bringing in Papalii for Whitelock. Whitelock topped the tackle count last week and is usually in our top 2 or 3. Papalii has a high workrate and tackles like a demon also.
I don’t think our balance is affected too much. Papalii and Ardie are lineout options.
I think with starting Scooter last week was about the sort of form he is in. It was a line ball call for me in my Crusaders review between him and Blackadder for POTY.
