Foster, Robertson etc
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
One thing that has been identified and is being worked on by NZR is coach development. One of the root causes to player development waning is that a generation of good coaches have gone overseas for opportunities and money. Partly due to consequence of timing, it must be said. The quality of our Super coaches and assistants is in a development phase at most franchises.
Like player loss the impact of coaches going overseas is huge in its indirect effects as the whole chain on coaching capabilities is dragged up the ranks meaning player development happens further up the chain than it should.
I don’t know the solution to this except the effort already being thrown at the lower levels.. maybe we need to change attitudes to the top jobs and create more performance based churn which would provide more incentive to stick around instead of coaches seeing a multi year blockage ahead of them.
That approach doesn’t seem to work that well for players though so there’s an argument that it may not for coaches. At least coaches can change country and come back though which may be a difference.@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
One thing that has been identified and is being worked on by NZR is coach development. One of the root causes to player development waning is that a generation of good coaches have gone overseas for opportunities and money. Partly due to consequence of timing, it must be said. The quality of our Super coaches and assistants is in a development phase at most franchises.
Like player loss the impact of coaches going overseas is huge in its indirect effects as the whole chain on coaching capabilities is dragged up the ranks meaning player development happens further up the chain than it should.
I don’t know the solution to this except the effort already being thrown at the lower levels.. maybe we need to change attitudes to the top jobs and create more performance based churn which would provide more incentive to stick around instead of coaches seeing a multi year blockage ahead of them.
That approach doesn’t seem to work that well for players though so there’s an argument that it may not for coaches. At least coaches can change country and come back though which may be a difference.Maybe the NZRU has to be open to non-Kiwi coaches in the ABs set up. If not short term to get the team firing again. Or maybe they should have just recognised since the end of 2016 our team has been below ABs standard set by the previous 10 years.
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Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
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Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct. -
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct.@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct.Partially correct, because he is totally wrong about Foster as a head coach, Foster's not good enough by any measure
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct.Partially correct, because he is totally wrong about Foster as a head coach, Foster's not good enough by any measure
@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
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@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
@Winger iirc Brown was one he had asked but he had thrown his lot in with Joseph, unsure about the rest.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though. If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins. There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though.
It has though and that's the reality.
If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
Selective use of statistics there. E.g. Foster's overall win ratio in 2021 from 15 Tests (losses to Ireland and France and a narrow loss to SA) was 80%.
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins.
No we don't and haven't had for some time. Look at the U20 results and the quality of players in France for example. We don't have all these wonder players you think we have. If we did, the Whitelock & Retallick replacements would be oven-ready.
There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
Magic solution which won't solve the deeper issues.
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@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
One would hope NZR are working on a plan for that scenario.
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Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
I might have disagreed with Steve Tew on a few things, but I reckon he was comfortably the best NZR CEO of the past 25 years or whenever the job was created.
Where's Hamish Riach when we need him? (Ashburton I think?).
This sounds like chchfanatics scenario might be on the money.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
@Winger said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
We will never know - because of a stupid recruitment process that required people to put together a "gang of coaches" rather than appointing a Head Coach and then appointing the best available assistants.
Can't remember whether this should be hung on Tew or Robinson, but whomever is responsible deserves monumental boot up the arse.
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@Winger said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
We will never know - because of a stupid recruitment process that required people to put together a "gang of coaches" rather than appointing a Head Coach and then appointing the best available assistants.
Can't remember whether this should be hung on Tew or Robinson, but whomever is responsible deserves monumental boot up the arse.
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@Chris-B
Well said, Chris B.
Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Something doesn't seem rosy with NZR but everything is so secretive I don't know how individuals can be singled out But perhaps they need an external ex-coaching/review panel of advisors ..
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Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Something doesn't seem rosy with NZR but everything is so secretive I don't know how individuals can be singled out But perhaps they need an external ex-coaching/review panel of advisors ..
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Robinson and the Board appear to have poo fingered most things over the last few years. The governance has been shocking. THe stakeholder management has been shocking. The comms after a series loss has been shocking. We're a goddamn joke off the field at the moment,
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@MrDenmore Hansen should have resigned after the 2016 EOYT. He lead the decline of AB rugby and its steadily since.
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@MrDenmore Hansen should have resigned after the 2016 EOYT. He lead the decline of AB rugby and its steadily since.
What decline? Or do you consider the retirement of senior, probably one in a lifetime in terms of their combinations, players to be the coaches responsibility? Replacing those players as best he can is the coaches responsibility, but the quality of cattle isn't consistent and doesn't guarantee performance levels will remain unchanged.
Given the loss of McCaw/Carter/Nonu/Smith (and to a lesser extent Mealamu - we lost his experience but he was nearing the end of his career) we played some very good rugby with Hansen in charge (less so when he appeared to hand over the reigns to Fozzie) in 2017/2018 and I would argue that injuries (BBBR and McKenzie) and circumstance (cancellation of final pool games meant knockout games were tougher against well rested opposition) he did OK. The opening RWC game against South Africa without BBBR always looked difficult and Hansen navigated it with some ease.
Looking at the 2015/2016 squads, the thing that jumps out at me is how little progress we have made in some areas over 6 years - centres have been a string of injuries (largely outside of the AB setup so difficult to blame Hansen), we have made very little progress on the locking front and under Hansen, never found a 6 that worked well individually or with the rest of the team.
Fortunately, Fozzie has found Reiko can play OK at centre because outside of Will Jordan in the backs, I'm not sure what Fozzie will be handing over to the next coach in 2024 from the current playing 15 between retirements (tight 5, Smith, Beauden) and under performance.
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Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Something doesn't seem rosy with NZR but everything is so secretive I don't know how individuals can be singled out But perhaps they need an external ex-coaching/review panel of advisors ..
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Something doesn't seem rosy with NZR but everything is so secretive I don't know how individuals can be singled out But perhaps they need an external ex-coaching/review panel of advisors ..
Rugby governance has always been dicey - the KPI's based on stocks of gin, tonic, ice and lemon have never been particularly beneficial to the game but are accepted universally across the IRB and other countries as all that matters.
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@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@MrDenmore Hansen should have resigned after the 2016 EOYT. He lead the decline of AB rugby and its steadily since.
What decline? Or do you consider the retirement of senior, probably one in a lifetime in terms of their combinations, players to be the coaches responsibility? Replacing those players as best he can is the coaches responsibility, but the quality of cattle isn't consistent and doesn't guarantee performance levels will remain unchanged.
Given the loss of McCaw/Carter/Nonu/Smith (and to a lesser extent Mealamu - we lost his experience but he was nearing the end of his career) we played some very good rugby with Hansen in charge (less so when he appeared to hand over the reigns to Fozzie) in 2017/2018 and I would argue that injuries (BBBR and McKenzie) and circumstance (cancellation of final pool games meant knockout games were tougher against well rested opposition) he did OK. The opening RWC game against South Africa without BBBR always looked difficult and Hansen navigated it with some ease.
Looking at the 2015/2016 squads, the thing that jumps out at me is how little progress we have made in some areas over 6 years - centres have been a string of injuries (largely outside of the AB setup so difficult to blame Hansen), we have made very little progress on the locking front and under Hansen, never found a 6 that worked well individually or with the rest of the team.
Fortunately, Fozzie has found Reiko can play OK at centre because outside of Will Jordan in the backs, I'm not sure what Fozzie will be handing over to the next coach in 2024 from the current playing 15 between retirements (tight 5, Smith, Beauden) and under performance.
@PecoTrain The ABs have sometimes had a team without stars but they have always competed. Now, they have a team of talented individuals but are not in the competition. You do the maths.
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So....where to from here for the team
Win both tests and we are stuck with lame duck Foster through to the WC.
Lose both tests and Foster may well be gone...
Win one-lose one......sheesh anybodys guess......cross fingers and hope like helll??? -
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Personally the 2007 quarter final
That's interesting, the ABs were dominant in that game. It just the ref decided not to ref what was going on
We completely lost the plot in that game and had zero on-field management and ability to adapt. Some of the dumbest, brainless rugby an AB team has played IMO.
We actually played quite smart, I thought, in the period after the yellow card - got the ball in the right area of the field, dominated possession, went forward up the guts with our forwards, soaked up the clock, and managed to bag a 5-pointer. The really dumb thing was that we didn't then get away from that when we went back up to 15 on the pitch and the French and barnes just started ignoring the breakdown rules, which meant the up the guts strategy became less effective.
I was there (sadly). My abiding memory was us hammering their line and not having the nous to go for drop goals. Dan sure as heck exorcised that little itch in 2015 though
My abiding memory after the game was a loud-mouth bloke in an England shirt taunting AB supporters and being decked by another bloke in a Saffa shirt. At least one of then was a Rugby fan.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Personally the 2007 quarter final
That's interesting, the ABs were dominant in that game. It just the ref decided not to ref what was going on
We completely lost the plot in that game and had zero on-field management and ability to adapt. Some of the dumbest, brainless rugby an AB team has played IMO.
We actually played quite smart, I thought, in the period after the yellow card - got the ball in the right area of the field, dominated possession, went forward up the guts with our forwards, soaked up the clock, and managed to bag a 5-pointer. The really dumb thing was that we didn't then get away from that when we went back up to 15 on the pitch and the French and barnes just started ignoring the breakdown rules, which meant the up the guts strategy became less effective.
I was there (sadly). My abiding memory was us hammering their line and not having the nous to go for drop goals. Dan sure as heck exorcised that little itch in 2015 though
My abiding memory after the game was a loud-mouth bloke in an England shirt taunting AB supporters and being decked by another bloke in a Saffa shirt. At least one of then was a Rugby fan.
Mine was lots of Irish doing the same thing.
Hated their rugby team ever since. Somewhat more difficult now.
