Foster, Robertson etc
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@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
BTW, I think @Bones is right with his points that some may view him overworking his senior players and making them not be set-up for success with the ABs. If he was asked for some moderation and refused, he won't have improved his standing with the fishheads either.
Lol, you realize this isn't the Top 14 or URC where there's 25 games + Euro champions cup on top of that..
Razor is no different to the other SR coaches with their All Blacks - Jason Holland has virtually had Jordie Barrett playing every minute of the last World Cup cycle for the Hurricanes without a break.
13 games of Super Rugby isn't a massive workload at all.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
BTW, I think @Bones is right with his points that some may view him overworking his senior players and making them not be set-up for success with the ABs. If he was asked for some moderation and refused, he won't have improved his standing with the fishheads either.
Lol, you realize this isn't the Top 14 or URC where there's 25 games + Euro champions cup on top of that..
13 games of Super Rugby isn't a massive workload at all.
Adding to that Barrett,Blackadder,Ennor,Mounga,Reece who are fit have not played any pre season games and Goodhue ,Whitelock,Newell,Havilli just 30 minutes.
Were the Chiefs and Canes and the Blues except for BB have all played their Ab's at least once. -
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
BTW, I think @Bones is right with his points that some may view him overworking his senior players and making them not be set-up for success with the ABs. If he was asked for some moderation and refused, he won't have improved his standing with the fishheads either.
Lol, you realize this isn't the Top 14 or URC where there's 25 games + Euro champions cup on top of that..
13 games of Super Rugby isn't a massive workload at all.
Adding to that Barrett,Blackadder,Ennor,Mounga,Reece who are fit have not played any pre season games and Goodhue ,Whitelock,Newell,Havilli just 30 minutes.
Were the Chiefs and Canes and the Blues except for BB have all played their Ab's at least once. -
@Chris so he's not playing them enough. Explains why Taylor takes 5 games to get any kind of form back. Bloody razor
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@chchfanatic said in Foster, Robertson etc:
The fish heads in nzrfu don’t like him.
What are the reasons they don't like him?
I can't believe I'm engaging with this thread.
My guess is that he is seen as a risk. It's not clear that his methods will translate to the international arena.
He was sounded out about being brought onto the AB coaching team and said, no, I only want the top job. This would mean that any change to him as the head coach would go against the develop, promote philosophy that NZ rugby seems to prefer. My guess is it would also mean a complete change in team - no Shand, no whoever else. That might not be a bad thing at all, but it would likely make him be considered a risk as he can't be judged within that environment, or with another team before being handed the reins.
If I compare his attitude to Ryans - who when asked to contribute to the ABs as an assistant, he jumped at it straight away. Whether they are wrong or not, I can imagine the NZRU appreciating that attitude.
I also think that there may be some hangover from the 2016 U20s. That team might not have been the strongest, but they had five future ABs (Barrett, Paps, Aumua, Jacobson, Perofeta) and some that are or have been very close (MMT, Stevenson, Strange, Walker-Leawere). Not making the playoffs with that level of quality in his last team with a team brought together quickly probably doesn't help, and it's not clear what the review showed (edit: it's worth noting that some of the players mentioned above were in that team).
BTW, I think @Bones is right with his points that some may view him overworking his senior players and making them not be set-up for success with the ABs. If he was asked for some moderation and refused, he won't have improved his standing with the fishheads either.
All of this is speculation, someone like @chchfanatic or others will likely have some better info, but those would be the concerns I might have if I were trying to evaluate him against others (e.g., Joseph).
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
My guess is it would also mean a complete change in team - no Shand, no whoever else. That might not be a bad thing at all, but it would likely make him be considered a risk as he can't be judged within that environment, or with another team before being handed the reins.
Makes sense. NZR value continuity.
BTW, I think @Bones is right with his points that some may view him overworking his senior players and making them not be set-up for success with the ABs. If he was asked for some moderation and refused, he won't have improved his standing with the fishheads either.
We don't really know how much interaction there is between SR coaches and NZR but you'd imagine there'd be a fair bit between the AB coaching set-up and the SR franchises. Maybe an issue which needs to looked at?
.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
The meltdown would be biblical if Foster was reappointed though
Wouldn't that mean only one thing, i.e., the ABs had won the RWC.
As I've said previously, I don't think Foster will continue beyond this year either way.
@Bovidae said in Foster, Robertson etc:
As I've said previously, I don't think Foster will continue beyond this year either way.
FWIW, neither do I. That said, the players rate & like him and he's also rated by the likes of Hansen, Henry etc so If we do OK at RWC2023 I can see him having some sort of role in NZ Rugby.
I'm taking all the rumours with several kg's of salt, but if NZR are now starting the process of reviewing coaching options after 2023, I think that's a positive step.
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@chchfanatic said in Foster, Robertson etc:
The fish heads in nzrfu don’t like him.
What are the reasons they don't like him?
I can't believe I'm engaging with this thread.
My guess is that he is seen as a risk. It's not clear that his methods will translate to the international arena.
He was sounded out about being brought onto the AB coaching team and said, no, I only want the top job. This would mean that any change to him as the head coach would go against the develop, promote philosophy that NZ rugby seems to prefer. My guess is it would also mean a complete change in team - no Shand, no whoever else. That might not be a bad thing at all, but it would likely make him be considered a risk as he can't be judged within that environment, or with another team before being handed the reins.
If I compare his attitude to Ryans - who when asked to contribute to the ABs as an assistant, he jumped at it straight away. Whether they are wrong or not, I can imagine the NZRU appreciating that attitude.
I also think that there may be some hangover from the 2016 U20s. That team might not have been the strongest, but they had five future ABs (Barrett, Paps, Aumua, Jacobson, Perofeta) and some that are or have been very close (MMT, Stevenson, Strange, Walker-Leawere). Not making the playoffs with that level of quality in his last team with a team brought together quickly probably doesn't help, and it's not clear what the review showed (edit: it's worth noting that some of the players mentioned above were in that team).
BTW, I think @Bones is right with his points that some may view him overworking his senior players and making them not be set-up for success with the ABs. If he was asked for some moderation and refused, he won't have improved his standing with the fishheads either.
All of this is speculation, someone like @chchfanatic or others will likely have some better info, but those would be the concerns I might have if I were trying to evaluate him against others (e.g., Joseph).
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I also think that there may be some hangover from the 2016 U20s. That team might not have been the strongest, but they had five future ABs (Barrett, Paps, Aumua, Jacobson, Perofeta) and some that are or have been very close (MMT, Stevenson, Strange, Walker-Leawere). Not making the playoffs with that level of quality in his last team with a team brought together quickly probably doesn't help, and it's not clear what the review showed (edit: it's worth noting that some of the players mentioned above were in that team).
They didn't make the knockouts (despite having a greater +/- than Ireland) as the format changed that year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship
It was an ugly match in the pouring rain, despite this one loss (gasp...) his U20's record 93% is only second to Rennie.
Also context is important here, Razor was just 40 in 2016, he'd only been a head coach for 3 years, he's 47 now & undoubtedly a much better coach from his experience.
And if we are going to cherry-pick reasons for shafting Razor then I could equally discount Joseph:
-2013 Highlanders finished 2nd last after they signed several top-line All Blacks, Jamie was subsequently confronted by senior players at the end of the season about his management style and to his credit he changed his approach from then on.
-Joseph had arguably the best NPC team at Wellington for multiple seasons and they could never get across the line at the end when it really mattered and claim titles. They had arguably the best talent coming through in most positions.
Between 2008-2010 Wellington lost 3 grand finals, bossed the group stages, just couldn't overcome that mental barrier.
I prefer Razor as he seems to install an unwavering clear mental state in his players to perform during the highest pressure of situations - finals.
That's not to say Joseph can't but I think Razor has a habitual winning formula that is continually honed, refined & improved upon each season, he's so driven and competitive that it just consumes him - finding those critical 1 percenters that can deliver optimal team performance come play-off's time. He's a relentless stubborn competitor and turns over every single rock in his quest to win.
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@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I also think that there may be some hangover from the 2016 U20s. That team might not have been the strongest, but they had five future ABs (Barrett, Paps, Aumua, Jacobson, Perofeta) and some that are or have been very close (MMT, Stevenson, Strange, Walker-Leawere). Not making the playoffs with that level of quality in his last team with a team brought together quickly probably doesn't help, and it's not clear what the review showed (edit: it's worth noting that some of the players mentioned above were in that team).
They didn't make the knockouts (despite having a greater +/- than Ireland) as the format changed that year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship
It was an ugly match in the pouring rain, despite this one loss (gasp...) his U20's record 93% is only second to Rennie.
Also context is important here, Razor was just 40 in 2016, he'd only been a head coach for 3 years, he's 47 now & undoubtedly a much better coach from his experience.
And if we are going to cherry-pick reasons for shafting Razor then I could equally discount Joseph:
-2013 Highlanders finished 2nd last after they signed several top-line All Blacks, Jamie was subsequently confronted by senior players at the end of the season about his management style and to his credit he changed his approach from then on.
-Joseph had arguably the best NPC team at Wellington for multiple seasons and they could never get across the line at the end when it really mattered and claim titles. They had arguably the best talent coming through in most positions.
Between 2008-2010 Wellington lost 3 grand finals, bossed the group stages, just couldn't overcome that mental barrier.
I prefer Razor as he seems to install an unwavering clear mental state in his players to perform during the highest pressure of situations - finals.
That's not to say Joseph can't but I think Razor has a habitual winning formula that is continually honed, refined & improved upon each season, he's so driven and competitive that it just consumes him - finding those critical 1 percenters that can deliver optimal team performance come play-off's time. He's a relentless stubborn competitor and turns over every single rock in his quest to win.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I also think that there may be some hangover from the 2016 U20s. That team might not have been the strongest, but they had five future ABs (Barrett, Paps, Aumua, Jacobson, Perofeta) and some that are or have been very close (MMT, Stevenson, Strange, Walker-Leawere). Not making the playoffs with that level of quality in his last team with a team brought together quickly probably doesn't help, and it's not clear what the review showed (edit: it's worth noting that some of the players mentioned above were in that team).
They didn't make the knockouts (despite having a greater +/- than Ireland) as the format changed that year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship
It was an ugly match in the pouring rain, despite this one loss (gasp...) his U20's record 93% is only second to Rennie.
Also context is important here, Razor was just 40 in 2016, he'd only been a head coach for 3 years, he's 47 now & undoubtedly a much better coach from his experience.
And if we are going to cherry-pick reasons for shafting Razor then I could equally discount Joseph:
-2013 Highlanders finished 2nd last after they signed several top-line All Blacks, Jamie was subsequently confronted by senior players at the end of the season about his management style and to his credit he changed his approach from then on.
-Joseph had arguably the best NPC team at Wellington for multiple seasons and they could never get across the line at the end when it really mattered and claim titles. They had arguably the best talent coming through in most positions.
Between 2008-2010 Wellington lost 3 grand finals, bossed the group stages, just couldn't overcome that mental barrier.
I prefer Razor as he seems to install an unwavering clear mental state in his players to perform during the highest pressure of situations - finals.
That's not to say Joseph can't but I think Razor has a habitual winning formula that is continually honed & improved upon each season, he's so driven & competitive that it just consumes him - finding those critical 1 percenters that can deliver optimal team performance come play-off's time. He's a relentless stubborn competitor and turns over every single rock in his quest to win.
Yep. If Razor gets shit for the U20s then JJ has to get shit for that season. The Highlanders were absolutely dire.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I also think that there may be some hangover from the 2016 U20s. That team might not have been the strongest, but they had five future ABs (Barrett, Paps, Aumua, Jacobson, Perofeta) and some that are or have been very close (MMT, Stevenson, Strange, Walker-Leawere). Not making the playoffs with that level of quality in his last team with a team brought together quickly probably doesn't help, and it's not clear what the review showed (edit: it's worth noting that some of the players mentioned above were in that team).
They didn't make the knockouts (despite having a greater +/- than Ireland) as the format changed that year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship
It was an ugly match in the pouring rain, despite this one loss (gasp...) his U20's record 93% is only second to Rennie.
Also context is important here, Razor was just 40 in 2016, he'd only been a head coach for 3 years, he's 47 now & undoubtedly a much better coach from his experience.
And if we are going to cherry-pick reasons for shafting Razor then I could equally discount Joseph:
-2013 Highlanders finished 2nd last after they signed several top-line All Blacks, Jamie was subsequently confronted by senior players at the end of the season about his management style and to his credit he changed his approach from then on.
-Joseph had arguably the best NPC team at Wellington for multiple seasons and they could never get across the line at the end when it really mattered and claim titles. They had arguably the best talent coming through in most positions.
Between 2008-2010 Wellington lost 3 grand finals, bossed the group stages, just couldn't overcome that mental barrier.
I prefer Razor as he seems to install an unwavering clear mental state in his players to perform during the highest pressure of situations - finals.
That's not to say Joseph can't but I think Razor has a habitual winning formula that is continually honed & improved upon each season, he's so driven & competitive that it just consumes him - finding those critical 1 percenters that can deliver optimal team performance come play-off's time. He's a relentless stubborn competitor and turns over every single rock in his quest to win.
Yep. If Razor gets shit for the U20s then JJ has to get shit for that season. The Highlanders were absolutely dire.
@Rancid-Schnitzel I think it shows how crucial Tony Brown and Clarke Dermody's appointments were in 2014.
Prior to their appointments the Highlanders had finished 9th, 11th, 14th. Afterwards - 5th, 1st, 4th, 5th.
I rate Dermody very highly as a forwards coach.
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@Chris so he's not playing them enough. Explains why Taylor takes 5 games to get any kind of form back. Bloody razor
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@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
My Pick here is Jamie Joseph with Tony Brown as assistant will be the next AB coach.
I think Mary Banks legend has it spot on.I doubt it will happen, but honestly speaking, that's a pretty hard team to beat if they can also add Jase Ryan with the forwards.
I'd have Brown over Holland and Joseph has Super success and international experience.
Does anyone have an idea who a Joseph-Brown team would prefer to coach the forwards?
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
My Pick here is Jamie Joseph with Tony Brown as assistant will be the next AB coach.
I think Mary Banks legend has it spot on.I doubt it will happen, but honestly speaking, that's a pretty hard team to beat if they can also add Jase Ryan with the forwards.
I'd have Brown over Holland and Joseph has Super success and international experience.
Does anyone have an idea who a Joseph-Brown team would prefer to coach the forwards?
Joseph coaches the forwards for Japan currently, back in 2019 he was looking to bring Dermody in as scrum/forwards coach which would've seen the original 2015 Highlanders coaching group Joseph, Brown, McLeod, Dermody at the All Blacks, this was before Japan doubled their offer & Jamie opted to stay on.
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@KiwiMurph McLeod will be gone after 2023 regardless of who gets the job, Razor wants McDonald, Ryan, Holland, Hansen.
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@KiwiMurph McLeod will be gone after 2023 regardless of who gets the job, Razor wants McDonald, Ryan, Holland, Hansen.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@KiwiMurph McLeod will be gone after 2023 regardless of who gets the job, Razor wants McDonald, Ryan, Holland, Hansen.
Are you sure about that Mcleod going I would not trust NZR to get that job done.
Joseph may want him in his coaching team. -
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@KiwiMurph McLeod will be gone after 2023 regardless of who gets the job, Razor wants McDonald, Ryan, Holland, Hansen.
Are you sure about that Mcleod going I would not trust NZR to get that job done.
Joseph may want him in his coaching team.@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
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@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
Must do, it proves something, and I have no idea what.
The mind boggles. -
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
I have said it before, but maybe McLeod has been given a shit sandwhich of a defensive system to coach rather than him being the brains behind the system.
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@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
It proves JJ isn't the coach we're looking for....
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
It proves JJ isn't the coach we're looking for....
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
It proves JJ isn't the coach we're looking for....
That was my thought.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
I have said it before, but maybe McLeod has been given a shit sandwhich of a defensive system to coach rather than him being the brains behind the system.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
I have said it before, but maybe McLeod has been given a shit sandwhich of a defensive system to coach rather than him being the brains behind the system.
Ryan was given a shit show of a forward pack in terms of performance and, well, you know the rest
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris if JJ wants McLeod on his team then surely that proves us plebs on here know Jack shit about the defensive structures running at International level?
I have said it before, but maybe McLeod has been given a shit sandwhich of a defensive system to coach rather than him being the brains behind the system.
@Crazy-Horse yeah who knows aye, we won't know until he is gone or a new coach comes in, if he stays on...
