All Black props
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Speaking of props, de Groot and Lomax weren't anymore effective as ball-carriers than Bower and Ta'avao were a week earlier. They also made less tackles by comparison.
What they did do well, especially Lomax, was to clean at rucks to allow phases to be built and pressure to be applied. So we might not need our props to do that job if they are doing other roles well. That said, I don't think Laulala does much now outside of scrummaging so he would be the first experienced TH prop I would phase out.
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Speaking of props, de Groot and Lomax weren't anymore effective as ball-carriers than Bower and Ta'avao were a week earlier. They also made less tackles by comparison.
What they did do well, especially Lomax, was to clean at rucks to allow phases to be built and pressure to be applied. So we might not need our props to do that job if they are doing other roles well. That said, I don't think Laulala does much now outside of scrummaging so he would be the first experienced TH prop I would phase out.
@Bovidae What they also did well - Newell and De Groot especially - is handle and pass well. Newell obviously had that one handling error that lead to Beaudy getting binned but he also threw a great in ball to Jordie the phase before Havili scored at the end.
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@Bovidae What they also did well - Newell and De Groot especially - is handle and pass well. Newell obviously had that one handling error that lead to Beaudy getting binned but he also threw a great in ball to Jordie the phase before Havili scored at the end.
@KiwiMurph Ta'avao is pretty good as a distributor too. The stats say that Bower never passed the ball once in the 1st test.
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@Chris-B said in All Black props:
@pakman I reckon you're pretty close to the money on the loosehead side - assuming Moody comes back well from injury. He can play a similar sort of role to Tony Woodcock - a solid option if no-one plays well enough to supplant him. Though EdG and Bower look pretty appealing.
I'm a bit more with Crucial on the tighthead side. I'm hoping Newell can pull an Owen Franks and come on in leaps and bounds to become our premier tighthead by 2023 - it is his destiny, Luke! Like you, I'm a bit iffy about Tyrel, but he certainly did the job at the weekend. Right now, I'd take those two and then one of the other three - and I'm not sure which.
Sorry to sound like an old fart, but Nepo’s and Ofa’s scrummaging is a step up from Lomax. If Nowell’s progress is enough I suppose he might supplant Nepo, but going into the RWC with France, SA and Ireland on your side of the draw you want to take a top class TH scrummager.
@pakman said in All Black props:
but Nepo’s and Ofa’s scrummaging is a step up from Lomax
They're not exactly rock solid scrummagers to build your team around though. Both still fail at scrum time so they really need to be moved on I reckon.
Edit to say: I still think Tuungafasi has value off the bench though.
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I reckon you lot are even more conservative than you accuse Foster of being.
I’d be happy for Moody and Laulala to be phased out although can see value in experience as backups.
Stick with DeGroot and Bower. Ofa is an odd one for me. Has been around forever, occasionally looks the goods but has never even demanded a starting spot through performances. Has has his opportunities through others. Will probably stay around a bit longer.
Newell looks like he is a great investment despite having the strangest body shape since Quasimodo.
I’m hoping that Williams will get his own coming of age moment and finish the selection@Crucial they’ll give Moody every chance to get fit and ready for the RWC and all going well with his rehab, he’ll be in the squad for whatever tests are before the RWC and then a call will be made after that.
De Groot definitely looks the sort of player you’d go into the trenches with.
Bower has to work on consistency, but has the ingredients.
On the TH side, I think Ta’avao has really improved. Fitness is the issue.
Only one of Ofa or Laulala should go. I don’t think we can carry both. I’d opt for Ofa
That leaves one spot for Newell or Lomax - RC, EOYT and Super form next year will determine it as too early to call.
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@Crucial they’ll give Moody every chance to get fit and ready for the RWC and all going well with his rehab, he’ll be in the squad for whatever tests are before the RWC and then a call will be made after that.
De Groot definitely looks the sort of player you’d go into the trenches with.
Bower has to work on consistency, but has the ingredients.
On the TH side, I think Ta’avao has really improved. Fitness is the issue.
Only one of Ofa or Laulala should go. I don’t think we can carry both. I’d opt for Ofa
That leaves one spot for Newell or Lomax - RC, EOYT and Super form next year will determine it as too early to call.
@ACT-Crusader I am really pleased with the LH trio being Bower, de Groot and Moody for a RWC, that's solid as from what we've seen this year.
Maybe Ofa needs a EdG style rocket up him, when he turns it on he's brilliant, but he turns it on less often than I make an insightful post.
I'm completely sold on Newell, not so much on Ta'avao. If Lomax continues his improvement (as he was doing at the Highlanders and any other time he's not with the canes) he'll overtake him.
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@Crucial they’ll give Moody every chance to get fit and ready for the RWC and all going well with his rehab, he’ll be in the squad for whatever tests are before the RWC and then a call will be made after that.
De Groot definitely looks the sort of player you’d go into the trenches with.
Bower has to work on consistency, but has the ingredients.
On the TH side, I think Ta’avao has really improved. Fitness is the issue.
Only one of Ofa or Laulala should go. I don’t think we can carry both. I’d opt for Ofa
That leaves one spot for Newell or Lomax - RC, EOYT and Super form next year will determine it as too early to call.
@ACT-Crusader
With his mobility, strength and the fact he has another season for further upside and experience - I think Newell should be a certainty for the WCI know everyone has De Groot love, but he still looked pretty bloody immobile to me - but very willing.
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@ACT-Crusader
With his mobility, strength and the fact he has another season for further upside and experience - I think Newell should be a certainty for the WCI know everyone has De Groot love, but he still looked pretty bloody immobile to me - but very willing.
@Frank he’s a decent sized unit, 6’3 120kg+ And still getting used to the speed of test footy. Still very much a work in progress, but there’s an edge there that is very promising.
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With one more year under his belt, Tamaiti Williams could be a real option as he can play on both sides of the scrum. He is not a penalty magnet like Ofa T who could cost the All Blacks dearly if he is - one more time - red carded.
One to watch for the future is Brewis. He is a powerful scrummager and useful in the loose. On the TH side, I hope Ma'au will develop nicely as he is beefy and pretty powerful. Tosi is another prospect, still a bit raw as he is a former loose forward, but he is probably the most impressive prop in NZ with ball in hand.
Norris seems to have lost a few of his credits after the second game against Ireland. However, his potential is big. -
With one more year under his belt, Tamaiti Williams could be a real option as he can play on both sides of the scrum. He is not a penalty magnet like Ofa T who could cost the All Blacks dearly if he is - one more time - red carded.
One to watch for the future is Brewis. He is a powerful scrummager and useful in the loose. On the TH side, I hope Ma'au will develop nicely as he is beefy and pretty powerful. Tosi is another prospect, still a bit raw as he is a former loose forward, but he is probably the most impressive prop in NZ with ball in hand.
Norris seems to have lost a few of his credits after the second game against Ireland. However, his potential is big. -
@Bovidae What they also did well - Newell and De Groot especially - is handle and pass well. Newell obviously had that one handling error that lead to Beaudy getting binned but he also threw a great in ball to Jordie the phase before Havili scored at the end.
@KiwiMurph said in All Black props:
@Bovidae What they also did well - Newell and De Groot especially - is handle and pass well. Newell obviously had that one handling error that lead to Beaudy getting binned but he also threw a great in ball to Jordie the phase before Havili scored at the end.
Didn't EDG throw a beautiful pass in the middle of the first half? I thought...
To whoever said Nepo was one of our best scrummagers, is he still? I thought I saw him having trouble in one of the earlier tests (test 1 against the Irish perhaps)... and I can't remember the props being dominant (then again, Ryan wasn't in charge)..
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@KiwiMurph said in All Black props:
@Bovidae What they also did well - Newell and De Groot especially - is handle and pass well. Newell obviously had that one handling error that lead to Beaudy getting binned but he also threw a great in ball to Jordie the phase before Havili scored at the end.
Didn't EDG throw a beautiful pass in the middle of the first half? I thought...
To whoever said Nepo was one of our best scrummagers, is he still? I thought I saw him having trouble in one of the earlier tests (test 1 against the Irish perhaps)... and I can't remember the props being dominant (then again, Ryan wasn't in charge)..
@nostrildamus to be fair I think it was that he's better than Lomax (Nepo). He's never been a dominant scrummager, but probably slightly more competent on AB ball. I really don't think it's that big a margin to make it worth it though - it's not like he's never penalised or dominated.
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@nostrildamus to be fair I think it was that he's better than Lomax (Nepo). He's never been a dominant scrummager, but probably slightly more competent on AB ball. I really don't think it's that big a margin to make it worth it though - it's not like he's never penalised or dominated.
@Bones said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus to be fair I think it was that he's better than Lomax (Nepo). He's never been a dominant scrummager, but probably slightly more competent on AB ball. I really don't think it's that big a margin to make it worth it though - it's not like he's never penalised or dominated.
Yes I was hoping he and Ofa would capitalize on their importance for the next few years until the young props come through and Ofa used to be pretty mobile and a solid tackler but gee I get worried with the cards for him and Nepo can rack up a few penalties..
Was hoping I'd see a bit of Tamati Williams on the field-he is massive, but I wonder if his 1.96m height might be a weakness against shorter props and if his 144kg or so would be hugely taxing around the field at the speed of the international game these days..
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@Bones said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus to be fair I think it was that he's better than Lomax (Nepo). He's never been a dominant scrummager, but probably slightly more competent on AB ball. I really don't think it's that big a margin to make it worth it though - it's not like he's never penalised or dominated.
Yes I was hoping he and Ofa would capitalize on their importance for the next few years until the young props come through and Ofa used to be pretty mobile and a solid tackler but gee I get worried with the cards for him and Nepo can rack up a few penalties..
Was hoping I'd see a bit of Tamati Williams on the field-he is massive, but I wonder if his 1.96m height might be a weakness against shorter props and if his 144kg or so would be hugely taxing around the field at the speed of the international game these days..
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@nostrildamus
Uini Atonio is weighing 152 kgs and is playing test rugby. Not for 80 minutes but for 50 to 55 minutes. He is one of the reasons why the French pack is so dominant. -
@KiwiMurph said in All Black props:
@Bovidae What they also did well - Newell and De Groot especially - is handle and pass well. Newell obviously had that one handling error that lead to Beaudy getting binned but he also threw a great in ball to Jordie the phase before Havili scored at the end.
Didn't EDG throw a beautiful pass in the middle of the first half? I thought...
To whoever said Nepo was one of our best scrummagers, is he still? I thought I saw him having trouble in one of the earlier tests (test 1 against the Irish perhaps)... and I can't remember the props being dominant (then again, Ryan wasn't in charge)..
@nostrildamus Laulala didn't play in the 1st test but yes, he is still our best TH scrummager. I'd still have him personally.
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@nostrildamus Laulala didn't play in the 1st test but yes, he is still our best TH scrummager. I'd still have him personally.
@African-Monkey said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus Laulala didn't play in the 1st test but yes, he is still our best TH scrummager. I'd still have him personally.
I just feel like that's going down the road of selecting a hooker because he's the best thrower.
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@African-Monkey said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus Laulala didn't play in the 1st test but yes, he is still our best TH scrummager. I'd still have him personally.
I just feel like that's going down the road of selecting a hooker because he's the best thrower.
@Bones said in All Black props:
@African-Monkey said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus Laulala didn't play in the 1st test but yes, he is still our best TH scrummager. I'd still have him personally.
I just feel like that's going down the road of selecting a hooker because he's the best thrower.
Agree. The way scrums are reffed these days, dominance is only rewarded when it is complete and utter destruction. Against the big teams you only need to be able to hold your side up because sure as hell they can and even if you can get them to budge it won't give you much advantage.
In other words being a full package of carrying, tackling, passing and scrummaging totally trumps being the strongest scrummer.
What's with all the warm fuzzies on Moody? He went downhill impact wise ages ago. As I said earlier I see the value in having some old heads around so we don't have to go to deep into the pool of younger tyros but they aren't where I'd be focussing. -
@nostrildamus to be fair I think it was that he's better than Lomax (Nepo). He's never been a dominant scrummager, but probably slightly more competent on AB ball. I really don't think it's that big a margin to make it worth it though - it's not like he's never penalised or dominated.
@Bones said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus to be fair I think it was that he's better than Lomax (Nepo). He's never been a dominant scrummager, but probably slightly more competent on AB ball. I really don't think it's that big a margin to make it worth it though - it's not like he's never penalised or dominated.
You obviously didn't see Super rugby semi in which Nepo absolutely destroyed a certain J. Slipper.
He played the final test, and likely with a niggly neck.
