All Blacks v England
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@Frank said in All Blacks v England:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v England:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v England:
So it’s pretty much confirmed that we don’t have a ten in either BB or RM that can drive us around the park, and make 65mins of forward dominance pay.
Do we start looking at DMac and Perofeta from the bench as ten subs to see if they can do it?
We stick with RM at ten then we have very little chance at winning a World Cup. And as a bonus, be a team that lose from anywhere.
Yeah, Mo'unga has probably been the biggest disappointment, not because he's been absolutely dreadful, but because the cupboard is bare so we really needed him to step up, but he's just as flaky now as he was when he first came into the ABs. I think we should have a good look at DMac next year, he's really matured as a player and as all of the skills to do very well in the position.
It was criminal to give Perofeta so little gametime in black this year.
Beauden is definitely not the answer at 10 either. (I notice you've given up flogging that horse)
Both have been given untold chances to improve their game management and both have failed in this aspect.Totally agree DMac should be seriously looked at.
It'll be harder for Perofeta because BB will probably play at 10 for the Blues next year.I think both could be OK but they seem totally incapable of toning down the low percentage nonsense at the worst possible times. Hate to compare, but Kwade actually became a decent test 10 when he stopped acting the fancy tool and focussed on his core tasks.
Obviously I've been a massive BB fanboi but you can't sugar-coat shjt anymore. Not sure wtf happened to him. Those effing kicks 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. He's not a patch on what he was in 2016. I am deeply saddened by this. However, if he gets his shit together he should be 15 or at least the bench.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v England:
@Frank said in All Blacks v England:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v England:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v England:
So it’s pretty much confirmed that we don’t have a ten in either BB or RM that can drive us around the park, and make 65mins of forward dominance pay.
Do we start looking at DMac and Perofeta from the bench as ten subs to see if they can do it?
We stick with RM at ten then we have very little chance at winning a World Cup. And as a bonus, be a team that lose from anywhere.
Yeah, Mo'unga has probably been the biggest disappointment, not because he's been absolutely dreadful, but because the cupboard is bare so we really needed him to step up, but he's just as flaky now as he was when he first came into the ABs. I think we should have a good look at DMac next year, he's really matured as a player and as all of the skills to do very well in the position.
It was criminal to give Perofeta so little gametime in black this year.
Beauden is definitely not the answer at 10 either. (I notice you've given up flogging that horse)
Both have been given untold chances to improve their game management and both have failed in this aspect.Totally agree DMac should be seriously looked at.
It'll be harder for Perofeta because BB will probably play at 10 for the Blues next year.I think both could be OK but they seem totally incapable of toning down the low percentage nonsense at the worst possible times. Hate to compare, but Kwade actually became a decent test 10 when he stopped acting the fancy tool and focussed on his core tasks.
Obviously I've been a massive BB fanboi but you can't sugar-coat shjt anymore. Not sure wtf happened to him. Those effing kicks 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. He's not a patch on what he was in 2016. I am deeply saddened by this. However, if he gets his shit together he should be 15 or at least the bench.
I think part of the reason why he hasn't developed a more rounded game was his pace and other attributes could make up for his lack of game management. There has been untold games of shit positional kicks from him.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v England:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v England:
At least the things we’ve learnt from the Northern Tour leading into next year is that Papali’i is better than Cane, Jordie is our 12, Will Jordan needs to start at fullback next year, and our starting front row needs to continue developing together through to the WC.
The question is whether Foster has enough balls to drop Cane and Barrett from the top 15, I guess time will tell.
Foster has not dropped a single long-time starter in his entire AB head coaching career that I can recall. That does not inspire confidence that he will start now.
I'm impressed that some here think the NH tour showed good improvements. We were within a score of losing to Japan (I know they are getting better, but we usually field a full "B" outfit against them and win by plenty). We had a decent win against a fairly hapless Welsh side, but couldn't put away Scotland. Then that collapse against England. I don't see much upwards trajectory.
Our selections are better, thanks to some lucky injuries -- let's face it, if Havili hadn't been injured he's still be starting -- and the forwards have played well in parts. But mentally we remain frail.
Totally agree with this. We can analyze this all day but we have not made any real improvements this year and it all starts from the top. Foster should never have got the job in the first place. NZRU is an old boys club and we need a total clear out. Until this happen I C only pain. Some of the 23 are just not up to International level. They either never were or they are now past there sell by date.
As for the defence in the last 20, the defensive coach Scott McLeod should be fired immediately. Let him find his own way home. There is just no accountability for making a legendary team into a bit of a joke. That last 20 minutes will give me fucking nightmares for years. That was fucking shameful. No other way to describe it. You are never going to stop hearing about that from the poms.
Some major changes need to be made B4 next year or we are out in the quarters if we make it that far. The smirk on Eddie Jones's face made me fucking sick. That was a choke as big as the 1999 world cup against France that still fucking haunts me to this day.
@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v England:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v England:
At least the things we’ve learnt from the Northern Tour leading into next year is that Papali’i is better than Cane, Jordie is our 12, Will Jordan needs to start at fullback next year, and our starting front row needs to continue developing together through to the WC.
The question is whether Foster has enough balls to drop Cane and Barrett from the top 15, I guess time will tell.
Foster has not dropped a single long-time starter in his entire AB head coaching career that I can recall. That does not inspire confidence that he will start now.
I'm impressed that some here think the NH tour showed good improvements. We were within a score of losing to Japan (I know they are getting better, but we usually field a full "B" outfit against them and win by plenty). We had a decent win against a fairly hapless Welsh side, but couldn't put away Scotland. Then that collapse against England. I don't see much upwards trajectory.
Our selections are better, thanks to some lucky injuries -- let's face it, if Havili hadn't been injured he's still be starting -- and the forwards have played well in parts. But mentally we remain frail.
Totally agree with this. We can analyze this all day but we have not made any real improvements this year and it all starts from the top. Foster should never have got the job in the first place. NZRU is an old boys club and we need a total clear out. Until this happen I C only pain. Some of the 23 are just not up to International level. They either never were or they are now past there sell by date.
As for the defence in the last 20, the defensive coach Scott McLeod should be fired immediately. Let him find his own way home. There is just no accountability for making a legendary team into a bit of a joke. That last 20 minutes will give me fucking nightmares for years. That was fucking shameful. No other way to describe it. You are never going to stop hearing about that from the poms.
Some major changes need to be made B4 next year or we are out in the quarters if we make it that far. The smirk on Eddie Jones's face made me fucking sick. That was a choke as big as the 1999 world cup against France that still fucking haunts me to this day.
These posts are pointless. Foster is there until the RWC. Think we have improved but selecting still a work on.
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@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v England:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v England:
At least the things we’ve learnt from the Northern Tour leading into next year is that Papali’i is better than Cane, Jordie is our 12, Will Jordan needs to start at fullback next year, and our starting front row needs to continue developing together through to the WC.
The question is whether Foster has enough balls to drop Cane and Barrett from the top 15, I guess time will tell.
Foster has not dropped a single long-time starter in his entire AB head coaching career that I can recall. That does not inspire confidence that he will start now.
I'm impressed that some here think the NH tour showed good improvements. We were within a score of losing to Japan (I know they are getting better, but we usually field a full "B" outfit against them and win by plenty). We had a decent win against a fairly hapless Welsh side, but couldn't put away Scotland. Then that collapse against England. I don't see much upwards trajectory.
Our selections are better, thanks to some lucky injuries -- let's face it, if Havili hadn't been injured he's still be starting -- and the forwards have played well in parts. But mentally we remain frail.
Totally agree with this. We can analyze this all day but we have not made any real improvements this year and it all starts from the top. Foster should never have got the job in the first place. NZRU is an old boys club and we need a total clear out. Until this happen I C only pain. Some of the 23 are just not up to International level. They either never were or they are now past there sell by date.
As for the defence in the last 20, the defensive coach Scott McLeod should be fired immediately. Let him find his own way home. There is just no accountability for making a legendary team into a bit of a joke. That last 20 minutes will give me fucking nightmares for years. That was fucking shameful. No other way to describe it. You are never going to stop hearing about that from the poms.
Some major changes need to be made B4 next year or we are out in the quarters if we make it that far. The smirk on Eddie Jones's face made me fucking sick. That was a choke as big as the 1999 world cup against France that still fucking haunts me to this day.
These posts are pointless. Foster is there until the RWC. Think we have improved but selecting still a work on.
@Billy-Tell
Maybe. Just make me feel better to rant a bit. Yep Foster isn't going anywhere I agree. The man has no shame -
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v England:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v England:
At least the things we’ve learnt from the Northern Tour leading into next year is that Papali’i is better than Cane, Jordie is our 12, Will Jordan needs to start at fullback next year, and our starting front row needs to continue developing together through to the WC.
The question is whether Foster has enough balls to drop Cane and Barrett from the top 15, I guess time will tell.
Foster has not dropped a single long-time starter in his entire AB head coaching career that I can recall. That does not inspire confidence that he will start now.
I'm impressed that some here think the NH tour showed good improvements. We were within a score of losing to Japan (I know they are getting better, but we usually field a full "B" outfit against them and win by plenty). We had a decent win against a fairly hapless Welsh side, but couldn't put away Scotland. Then that collapse against England. I don't see much upwards trajectory.
Our selections are better, thanks to some lucky injuries -- let's face it, if Havili hadn't been injured he's still be starting -- and the forwards have played well in parts. But mentally we remain frail.
Totally agree with this. We can analyze this all day but we have not made any real improvements this year and it all starts from the top. Foster should never have got the job in the first place. NZRU is an old boys club and we need a total clear out. Until this happen I C only pain. Some of the 23 are just not up to International level. They either never were or they are now past there sell by date.
As for the defence in the last 20, the defensive coach Scott McLeod should be fired immediately. Let him find his own way home. There is just no accountability for making a legendary team into a bit of a joke. That last 20 minutes will give me fucking nightmares for years. That was fucking shameful. No other way to describe it. You are never going to stop hearing about that from the poms.
Some major changes need to be made B4 next year or we are out in the quarters if we make it that far. The smirk on Eddie Jones's face made me fucking sick. That was a choke as big as the 1999 world cup against France that still fucking haunts me to this day.
@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
Totally agree with this. We can analyze this all day but we have not made any real improvements this year and it all starts from the top. Foster should never have got the job in the first place. NZRU is an old boys club and we need a total clear out. Until this happen I C only pain. Some of the 23 are just not up to International level. They either never were or they are now past there sell by date.
As for the defence in the last 20, the defensive coach Scott McLeod should be fired immediately. Let him find his own way home. There is just no accountability for making a legendary team into a bit of a joke. That last 20 minutes will give me fucking nightmares for years. That was fucking shameful. No other way to describe it. You are never going to stop hearing about that from the poms.
I have to disagree with this. IMHO we have made improvements, they just weren't entirely (or in some cases in any way) down to Foster himself. The introduction of Ryan has coincided with better forward play, and our starting pack did more than enough to win us that game. Schmidt's introduction appears to have seen us play a more direct pattern for much of the time. If we can temper our attack from everywhere strategy, improve our exit strategy and bring in improved tactical kicking we could be more dangerous.
But I agree that despite defending well in close, our wider defence has been poor and McLeod should have been binned with the other 2 assistants.
Our lineup is starting to become clear, however as you pointed out not much of that has been down to Foster and more down to luck and injuries. If he picked the subs for the England game it shows that he still fails to make the most of the squad of players we have.
My expectations for RWC23 are still relatively low, but I am more upbeat right now than after the Ireland series. We are back in the mix of teams that could win out in France, there is no dominant team right now. But I feel like we will need to win in spite of Foster rather than because of him. If he fails to drop Cane and Havili it will only serve to reinforce that feeling for me
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@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v England:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v England:
At least the things we’ve learnt from the Northern Tour leading into next year is that Papali’i is better than Cane, Jordie is our 12, Will Jordan needs to start at fullback next year, and our starting front row needs to continue developing together through to the WC.
The question is whether Foster has enough balls to drop Cane and Barrett from the top 15, I guess time will tell.
Foster has not dropped a single long-time starter in his entire AB head coaching career that I can recall. That does not inspire confidence that he will start now.
I'm impressed that some here think the NH tour showed good improvements. We were within a score of losing to Japan (I know they are getting better, but we usually field a full "B" outfit against them and win by plenty). We had a decent win against a fairly hapless Welsh side, but couldn't put away Scotland. Then that collapse against England. I don't see much upwards trajectory.
Our selections are better, thanks to some lucky injuries -- let's face it, if Havili hadn't been injured he's still be starting -- and the forwards have played well in parts. But mentally we remain frail.
Totally agree with this. We can analyze this all day but we have not made any real improvements this year and it all starts from the top. Foster should never have got the job in the first place. NZRU is an old boys club and we need a total clear out. Until this happen I C only pain. Some of the 23 are just not up to International level. They either never were or they are now past there sell by date.
As for the defence in the last 20, the defensive coach Scott McLeod should be fired immediately. Let him find his own way home. There is just no accountability for making a legendary team into a bit of a joke. That last 20 minutes will give me fucking nightmares for years. That was fucking shameful. No other way to describe it. You are never going to stop hearing about that from the poms.
Some major changes need to be made B4 next year or we are out in the quarters if we make it that far. The smirk on Eddie Jones's face made me fucking sick. That was a choke as big as the 1999 world cup against France that still fucking haunts me to this day.
These posts are pointless. Foster is there until the RWC. Think we have improved but selecting still a work on.
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@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
Totally agree with this. We can analyze this all day but we have not made any real improvements this year and it all starts from the top. Foster should never have got the job in the first place. NZRU is an old boys club and we need a total clear out. Until this happen I C only pain. Some of the 23 are just not up to International level. They either never were or they are now past there sell by date.
As for the defence in the last 20, the defensive coach Scott McLeod should be fired immediately. Let him find his own way home. There is just no accountability for making a legendary team into a bit of a joke. That last 20 minutes will give me fucking nightmares for years. That was fucking shameful. No other way to describe it. You are never going to stop hearing about that from the poms.
I have to disagree with this. IMHO we have made improvements, they just weren't entirely (or in some cases in any way) down to Foster himself. The introduction of Ryan has coincided with better forward play, and our starting pack did more than enough to win us that game. Schmidt's introduction appears to have seen us play a more direct pattern for much of the time. If we can temper our attack from everywhere strategy, improve our exit strategy and bring in improved tactical kicking we could be more dangerous.
But I agree that despite defending well in close, our wider defence has been poor and McLeod should have been binned with the other 2 assistants.
Our lineup is starting to become clear, however as you pointed out not much of that has been down to Foster and more down to luck and injuries. If he picked the subs for the England game it shows that he still fails to make the most of the squad of players we have.
My expectations for RWC23 are still relatively low, but I am more upbeat right now than after the Ireland series. We are back in the mix of teams that could win out in France, there is no dominant team right now. But I feel like we will need to win in spite of Foster rather than because of him. If he fails to drop Cane and Havili it will only serve to reinforce that feeling for me
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This post is deleted!
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v England:
Pattern and tactics are one thing but I'm pretty sure Foster isn't instructing them to play like headless chickens and to kick like shjt.
I'm struggling to think of a team he coaches that doesn't have long patches of headless chicken decisions and shit kicks.
I didn't see Foster himself play many times but iirc he was pretty much the kind of 10 we'd like to have now. Unspectacular and limited but very solid.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v England:
Pattern and tactics are one thing but I'm pretty sure Foster isn't instructing them to play like headless chickens and to kick like shjt.
I'm struggling to think of a team he coaches that doesn't have long patches of headless chicken decisions and shit kicks.
I didn't see Foster himself play many times but iirc he was pretty much the kind of 10 we'd like to have now. Unspectacular and limited but very solid.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v England:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v England:
Pattern and tactics are one thing but I'm pretty sure Foster isn't instructing them to play like headless chickens and to kick like shjt.
I'm struggling to think of a team he coaches that doesn't have long patches of headless chicken decisions and shit kicks.
I didn't see Foster himself play many times but iirc he was pretty much the kind of 10 we'd like to have now. Unspectacular and limited but very solid.
I am only referring to his coaching. Happy to be proven wrong.
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I am sorry but to choke like that after a year like this to me anyway means we have made no major improvement. We drew a match after being 25 -6 up with 10 minutes left. Fucking disgraceful. !!!
@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
I am sorry but to choke like that after a year like this to me anyway means we have made no major improvement. We drew a match after being 25 -6 up with 10 minutes left. Fucking disgraceful. !!!
We lost a home series to Ireland, lost at home to Argentina, so I'd beg to differ!!! But we are far from the finished article
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v England:
Pattern and tactics are one thing but I'm pretty sure Foster isn't instructing them to play like headless chickens and to kick like shjt.
I'm struggling to think of a team he coaches that doesn't have long patches of headless chicken decisions and shit kicks.
I didn't see Foster himself play many times but iirc he was pretty much the kind of 10 we'd like to have now. Unspectacular and limited but very solid.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v England:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v England:
I'm happy to point out the positive
What's the positive?
With Clarke? His work under the high ball, breaks he's been making, work in close getting over the advantage line. Just off the top of my head.
Workons? Tackling/defence in general, link play, staying on his feet in general.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v England:
@Bones said in All Blacks v England:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v England:
I'm happy to point out the positive
What's the positive?
WiFainga’anukuth Clarke? His work under the high ball, breaks he's been making, work in close getting over the advantage line. Just off the top of my head.
Workons? Tackling/defence in general, link play, staying on his feet in general.
There is a lot to like about Clarke and I simply don’t see another power winger ready to take his place. Faingaanuku? Nope, if anything has underwhelmed to the point he was leap frogged by Mark Telea.
Clarke stays and needs to continue to improve.
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Thing that annoyed me most was that up to the 70th minute I was content in knowing we were going to show Twickenham what happens when you disrespect the haka
@Nevorian said in All Blacks v England:
Thing that annoyed me most was that up to the 70th minute I was content in knowing we were going to show Twickenham what happens when you disrespect the haka
Tell that to Campese!
Seriously though, I have heard of several ways in which it is respectful to address the Haka and it keeps changing. Is there a definitive response? Is it indeed necessary for this to be "respected" or are some Kiwis just a bit too precious about it?
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@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
I am sorry but to choke like that after a year like this to me anyway means we have made no major improvement. We drew a match after being 25 -6 up with 10 minutes left. Fucking disgraceful. !!!
We lost a home series to Ireland, lost at home to Argentina, so I'd beg to differ!!! But we are far from the finished article
@canefan said in All Blacks v England:
@mencey said in All Blacks v England:
I am sorry but to choke like that after a year like this to me anyway means we have made no major improvement. We drew a match after being 25 -6 up with 10 minutes left. Fucking disgraceful. !!!
We lost a home series to Ireland, lost at home to Argentina, so I'd beg to differ!!! But we are far from the finished article
Dam good point. As I say, just embarrassing !!
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It was a fitting end to a disappointing season, prob the worst I can remember for a long time. A 6-4-1 record is abysmal for the AB’s considering we’re up at around 80% in the professional era. Personally I can’t wait to see the back of Foster who at this stage will end up with one of the worst winning percentages as an AB coach.
How the hell do you give up 3 tries in 8 minutes? By being mentally soft that’s how. Inconsistency is the name of the game for Fosters AB’s.
The saving grace is that barring Ireland/France all of the other test sides are also inconsistent. If the AB’s can get themselves to the semis of the RWC next year without major injuries and in current form then anything is possible in knockout stages.
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That was worse than us losing to Georgia
Biggest choke since Michael Hutchense
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v England:
That was worse than us losing to Georgia
Biggest choke since Michael Hutchense
Nice try Mike. But no. Ppl will quickly forget NZ drew 25 all at the home of English rugby.
They won't forget Wales losing at home to Georgia so quickly
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It was a fitting end to a disappointing season, prob the worst I can remember for a long time. A 6-4-1 record is abysmal for the AB’s considering we’re up at around 80% in the professional era. Personally I can’t wait to see the back of Foster who at this stage will end up with one of the worst winning percentages as an AB coach.
How the hell do you give up 3 tries in 8 minutes? By being mentally soft that’s how. Inconsistency is the name of the game for Fosters AB’s.
The saving grace is that barring Ireland/France all of the other test sides are also inconsistent. If the AB’s can get themselves to the semis of the RWC next year without major injuries and in current form then anything is possible in knockout stages.
@TheMojoman said in All Blacks v England:
It was a fitting end to a disappointing season, prob the worst I can remember for a long time. A 6-4-1 record is abysmal for the AB’s considering we’re up at around 80% in the professional era. Personally I can’t wait to see the back of Foster who at this stage will end up with one of the worst winning percentages as an AB coach.
How the hell do you give up 3 tries in 8 minutes? By being mentally soft that’s how. Inconsistency is the name of the game for Fosters AB’s.
The saving grace is that barring Ireland/France all of the other test sides are also inconsistent. If the AB’s can get themselves to the semis of the RWC next year without major injuries and in current form then anything is possible in knockout stages.
You can see some things have improved and others haven't. Last time I checked, the RWC is next year, so there is another year of domestic competition to go that may unearth some players to push out players no longer up to standard.
There is also another year for Ryan and Schmidt to implement their ideas. For the most part, the ABs defence was good against England when playing with 15. ABs just played poorly in last 10 mins.
Funnily enough, the game reminded me of the 2018 test when ABs scored 2 late tries to beat Boks having been battered for 65 mins. Boks had strangled England, but ABs escaped with the win. Boks went onto become world champions with tweaks as they learned from the loss of control in that match.
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@TheMojoman said in All Blacks v England:
It was a fitting end to a disappointing season, prob the worst I can remember for a long time. A 6-4-1 record is abysmal for the AB’s considering we’re up at around 80% in the professional era. Personally I can’t wait to see the back of Foster who at this stage will end up with one of the worst winning percentages as an AB coach.
How the hell do you give up 3 tries in 8 minutes? By being mentally soft that’s how. Inconsistency is the name of the game for Fosters AB’s.
The saving grace is that barring Ireland/France all of the other test sides are also inconsistent. If the AB’s can get themselves to the semis of the RWC next year without major injuries and in current form then anything is possible in knockout stages.
You can see some things have improved and others haven't. Last time I checked, the RWC is next year, so there is another year of domestic competition to go that may unearth some players to push out players no longer up to standard.
There is also another year for Ryan and Schmidt to implement their ideas. For the most part, the ABs defence was good against England when playing with 15. ABs just played poorly in last 10 mins.
Funnily enough, the game reminded me of the 2018 test when ABs scored 2 late tries to beat Boks having been battered for 65 mins. Boks had strangled England, but ABs escaped with the win. Boks went onto become world champions with tweaks as they learned from the loss of control in that match.
I’m definitely not writing us off. If we can get into the semi finals then anything can happen. I just lament the fact we’re turning into the Wallabies, Boks and co being very ordinary in between RWC’s
with the promise that we could win it no matter poor we were in between. IMO that’s a fools gold and not the heritage of NZ rugby. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v England:
That DG was simply rubbing it in.
I don't mind that in that situation
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I’m definitely not writing us off. If we can get into the semi finals then anything can happen. I just lament the fact we’re turning into the Wallabies, Boks and co being very ordinary in between RWC’s
with the promise that we could win it no matter poor we were in between. IMO that’s a fools gold and not the heritage of NZ rugby.@TheMojoman
Only until Razor's glorious 12 year dynasty of 90% test wins begins....
