ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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Can't we just let Super Rugby Pacific develop with a few minor tweaks for a while before people want to drastically change it up again?. The NZ and Australia's economies are nowhere recovered from the financial misery inflicted on us by the Covid response. Why do people expect a developing new competition to grow and succeed spectacularly in that background? They have tweaked it for next year with a dedicated Chief Executive, reduced the number of Aussie teams and have changed the finals draw, can't we just give it a chance and see how it develops rather than panickily proclaiming everyone else is doing everything better than us and we need major change to copy them NOW.
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Our only real advantage is centrally contracted players managing workloads and being prepped to peak at the right time. Players being contracted primarily to clubs is a headache for NH unions - they have to negotiate to get them, and things like camps are bloody hard.
Pick overseas players and kill your local comp. To be the best oyu have to play the best. Super used to be the best. Now NH comps are the best. And you see that with the international results.
It's no surprise that 2015 SF were all SANZAAR unions. We took that and went backwards - while NH got into gear and lifted their game. Can we do the same?
I think the quality would drop even more if this gets allowed ... it is fundamentally incompatible with Super as a
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
no surprise that 2015 SF were all SANZAAR unions.
By about 25% given only three of the four 2023 SF teams were from SANZAAR, and a whole one from from Europe.
@booboo said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
no surprise that 2015 SF were all SANZAAR unions.
By about 25% given only three of the four 2023 SF teams were from SANZAAR, and a whole one from from Europe.
yes, but against the odds. Whereas 2015 I think it followed form.
Still, SH has been dominant for a long time ... but I fear we're killing what separates us.
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@booboo said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
no surprise that 2015 SF were all SANZAAR unions.
By about 25% given only three of the four 2023 SF teams were from SANZAAR, and a whole one from from Europe.
yes, but against the odds. Whereas 2015 I think it followed form.
Still, SH has been dominant for a long time ... but I fear we're killing what separates us.
@nzzp like football the money is in the northern hemisphere, NZR need to get up with professionalism and simply accept that players will go where the money is & just pick them from anywhere -. South Africa did this in 2019 and subsequently went from 7th on the rankings to consecutive WC winners in 2019 and 2023...
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@nzzp like football the money is in the northern hemisphere, NZR need to get up with professionalism and simply accept that players will go where the money is & just pick them from anywhere -. South Africa did this in 2019 and subsequently went from 7th on the rankings to consecutive WC winners in 2019 and 2023...
@darylmitchell said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp like football the money is in the northern hemisphere, NZR need to get up with professionalism and simply accept that players will go where the money is & just pick them from anywhere -. South Africa did this in 2019 and subsequently went from 7th on the rankings to consecutive WC winners in 2019 and 2023...
Don't think it's an easy cause and effect as you're proposing
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@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
The Woeful Rob Penney coached Crusaders minus their test players only narrowly lost to Munster in Limerick 21-19 at the start of this season. The Welsh sides are currently trying to leave the URC to join the English Premiership. People need to stop over inflating the quality of the URC it is not superior to Super Rugby.
@tubbyj said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
The Woeful Rob Penney coached Crusaders minus their test players only narrowly lost to Munster in Limerick 21-19 at the start of this season. The Welsh sides are currently trying to leave the URC to join the English Premiership. People need to stop over inflating the quality of the URC it is not superior to Super Rugby.
It’s hard to judge the quality of it. Especially for me as I don’t watch it!
But 2 irish sides would be very good. Glasgow won it last season and a couple of the saffa sides would be good as well (bulls and probably stormers.)
Outside of that, the quality won’t be that great.
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
The longer NZ wait to select overseas players, the further they will stay behind the Springboks.
The best Springboks play in Japan. The lighter responsibility and physical demand on their bodies give them a longer playing lifespan.
According to Damian de Ellende.
I think alot is being made of 'the way SA do things' when in reality they are enjoying so much current success because they have stumbled very fortuitously on a brilliant coach/manager (for their mentality, not sure he would be so successful anywhere else) in Rassie Erasmus.
Wait until Rassie moves along and we see 'the SA way of doing things' being equally successful under a new regime cause it was not before Rassie.
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@tubbyj said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
The Woeful Rob Penney coached Crusaders minus their test players only narrowly lost to Munster in Limerick 21-19 at the start of this season. The Welsh sides are currently trying to leave the URC to join the English Premiership. People need to stop over inflating the quality of the URC it is not superior to Super Rugby.
It’s hard to judge the quality of it. Especially for me as I don’t watch it!
But 2 irish sides would be very good. Glasgow won it last season and a couple of the saffa sides would be good as well (bulls and probably stormers.)
Outside of that, the quality won’t be that great.
@DaGrubster it's not about the quality, it's more then that. The Lions struggled in the first few years but improved and now they top the CC log.
https://rugby365.com/tournaments/united-rugby-championship/urcs-contribution-to-bok-domination/
and the refs. The first year it was all about adopting to their way.
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@DaGrubster it's not about the quality, it's more then that. The Lions struggled in the first few years but improved and now they top the CC log.
https://rugby365.com/tournaments/united-rugby-championship/urcs-contribution-to-bok-domination/
and the refs. The first year it was all about adopting to their way.
@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster it's not about the quality, it's more then that. The Lions struggled in the first few years but improved and now they top the CC log.
https://rugby365.com/tournaments/united-rugby-championship/urcs-contribution-to-bok-domination/
and the refs. The first year it was all about adopting to their way.
Exposure and ultimately to the refs has to be advantageous. After a while you know their tendencies, and perhaps they start to subconsciously give you the benefit of the doubt
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster it's not about the quality, it's more then that. The Lions struggled in the first few years but improved and now they top the CC log.
https://rugby365.com/tournaments/united-rugby-championship/urcs-contribution-to-bok-domination/
and the refs. The first year it was all about adopting to their way.
Exposure and ultimately to the refs has to be advantageous. After a while you know their tendencies, and perhaps they start to subconsciously give you the benefit of the doubt
@canefan we had a rough start in year 1, all our teams was at the bottom of the log after touring. The other is the crowds. It's totally different then Superrugby. Smaller stadia except Leinster and Munster and very passionate. No booing when the kicker lines up. Old fashion rugby culture and passion.
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster it's not about the quality, it's more then that. The Lions struggled in the first few years but improved and now they top the CC log.
https://rugby365.com/tournaments/united-rugby-championship/urcs-contribution-to-bok-domination/
and the refs. The first year it was all about adopting to their way.
Exposure and ultimately to the refs has to be advantageous. After a while you know their tendencies, and perhaps they start to subconsciously give you the benefit of the doubt
@canefan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster it's not about the quality, it's more then that. The Lions struggled in the first few years but improved and now they top the CC log.
https://rugby365.com/tournaments/united-rugby-championship/urcs-contribution-to-bok-domination/
and the refs. The first year it was all about adopting to their way.
Exposure and ultimately to the refs has to be advantageous. After a while you know their tendencies, and perhaps they start to subconsciously give you the benefit of the doubt
Yes, that is one the big advantage of them playing in the URC to me.
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Don't discard the travel
Getting used to long distance travel and being away from home for a couple of weeks gives an advantage
Especially to less experienced players
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Don't discard the travel
Getting used to long distance travel and being away from home for a couple of weeks gives an advantage
Especially to less experienced players
@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Don't discard the travel
Getting used to long distance travel and being away from home for a couple of weeks gives an advantage
Especially to less experienced players
They were already travelling for SR though
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@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Don't discard the travel
Getting used to long distance travel and being away from home for a couple of weeks gives an advantage
Especially to less experienced players
They were already travelling for SR though
@canefan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Don't discard the travel
Getting used to long distance travel and being away from home for a couple of weeks gives an advantage
Especially to less experienced players
They were already travelling for SR though
Yeh, they always said one of the reasons the wanted to leave (before they actually left @African-Monkey) was that the travel was easy going north-south than west-east.
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@DaGrubster Didn't the NZRU look at something like this years back with Saracens? I think the South Africans took the initiative with Saracens (bankrolled by Johann Rupert)
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster Didn't the NZRU look at something like this years back with Saracens? I think the South Africans took the initiative with Saracens (bankrolled by Johann Rupert)
i thought it was Quins...but yeah, something was announced and i thought we were going to take control of giving coaches and players experience in other leagues....dont think i saw anything come out of it after it was announced
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I been interested to read the argument for open selection policy etc because it works for Boks and Pumas. Boks are No 2 in world so works for them, but the rest of top 5 work on playing for local teams, Ireland at No 1, NZ, England and France do.
I just think the arguments about Boks and Pumas don't really hold water. I think it's more what works for each country!
I honestly think the rules we have at moment are pretty good, there is enough flexibility from NZR (not sure what others use)tc at moment. -
I been interested to read the argument for open selection policy etc because it works for Boks and Pumas. Boks are No 2 in world so works for them, but the rest of top 5 work on playing for local teams, Ireland at No 1, NZ, England and France do.
I just think the arguments about Boks and Pumas don't really hold water. I think it's more what works for each country!
I honestly think the rules we have at moment are pretty good, there is enough flexibility from NZR (not sure what others use)tc at moment.@Dan54 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I been interested to read the argument for open selection policy etc because it works for Boks and Pumas. Boks are No 2 in world so works for them, but the rest of top 5 work on playing for local teams, Ireland at No 1, NZ, England and France do.
I just think the arguments about Boks and Pumas don't really hold water. I think it's more what works for each country!
I honestly think the rules we have at moment are pretty good, there is enough flexibility from NZR (not sure what others use)tc at moment.I don't think many people are worried about it harming the All Blacks, they're worried about it harming the domestic game.
Also worth noting that South Africa have only had this carte blanche approach for a few years. Once they've cycled through a generation of players who played their formative rugby in South Africa, their situation might be different (but might not). The bigger thing is still the domestic game.
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@Dan54 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I been interested to read the argument for open selection policy etc because it works for Boks and Pumas. Boks are No 2 in world so works for them, but the rest of top 5 work on playing for local teams, Ireland at No 1, NZ, England and France do.
I just think the arguments about Boks and Pumas don't really hold water. I think it's more what works for each country!
I honestly think the rules we have at moment are pretty good, there is enough flexibility from NZR (not sure what others use)tc at moment.I don't think many people are worried about it harming the All Blacks, they're worried about it harming the domestic game.
Also worth noting that South Africa have only had this carte blanche approach for a few years. Once they've cycled through a generation of players who played their formative rugby in South Africa, their situation might be different (but might not). The bigger thing is still the domestic game.
