All Blacks 2023
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
This stat is called 'lineout won own throw'
3 Sam Whitelock
2 Scott Barrett
2 Beauden Barrett
2 Brodie Retallick
1 Ardie SaveaNZ didn't get any from the French throw. The two BB takes must be from quick throws
@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
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@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
I think that is wrong, we sent up two jumpers when they had a 5 metre line out and disrupted their ball, even if we didn't win it. They couldn't get their maul game going as a result, I think that is the tactic for us to use.
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I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
I think that is wrong, we sent up two jumpers when they had a 5 metre line out and disrupted their ball, even if we didn't win it. They couldn't get their maul game going as a result, I think that is the tactic for us to use.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
This stat is called 'lineout won own throw'
3 Sam Whitelock
2 Scott Barrett
2 Beauden Barrett
2 Brodie Retallick
1 Ardie SaveaNZ didn't get any from the French throw. The two BB takes must be from quick throws
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
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@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
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I think we're missing the type of player that 2021-version Hoskins Sotutu was threatening to turn into, but hasn't quite become.
@Donsteppa quite difficult to do when you aren’t allowed to learn from your mistakes and develop over a period of time.
ABs need the ABs XV to provide these types of opportunities to players with potential who aren’t quite AB level yet.
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2023:
im beginning to think the best way to get rated he is not to get picked
Partly because the blokes who did get picked at the weekend didn't exactly help their case
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@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
100% agree I describe them as 6.5s they aren't really 7s and they aren't really 6's. By that I mean they play too loose to really be 6's and too tight to really be 7's. They all do sort of the same thing in general play. Looking at France if we kicked deep they always had Alldritt back as a truck it up option or support. Like we used to do with Read and So'oialo before that. But we had no one its not part of our 8s role any more.
Looking at our loose forwards in the world cup squad they can all play at least 2 roles and in the case of Savea he has played all 3 at one time or another.
I am sure its too suit our style of play. Or something but maybe we have gone to far in this idea of total rugby. Where everyone needs to do a bit of everything. Maybe the pendulum needs to swing back the other way. Towards more specialist players.
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2023:
im beginning to think the best way to get rated here is not to get picked
It certainly worked for Ethan Blackadder.
Others get rated based on one amazing game. This is called Frizzell syndrome.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@akan004 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2023:
Our lack of depth really prevents us from making early forward substitutions. Our whole frontrow will need to play deep into the second half. We also don't have an impact loose forward. Having Whitelock replace Retallick early is probably our best option.
I remember Cameron Suafoa being an absolute beast against the midweek Ireland side in Hamilton last year. Easily the best forward on the park, and then he's not selected for the 2nd game against them. Couldn't understand why but I guess it must have been influenced by the AB selectors.
We finally have a big power loose foward and we discard him. Instead we are obsessed with smaller, mobile forwards when the game internationally has shifted to a power game.
I'm not saying that he would definitely be test ready by now but he could have been if we had picked him and persevered with him. At least have a look instead of sticking to the same outdated formula. Same with Finau.
Is it that or do they not play “big” enough ?
Papalii and Jacobsen are not small men.
Yeah that's a valid point. A guy like Kolisi is not big but he has immense power. However, since our existing players aren't playing big enough, we need to look at other players.
@akan004 said in All Blacks 2023:
Yeah that's a valid point. A guy like Kolisi is not big but he has immense power. However, since our existing players aren't playing big enough, we need to look at other players.
Kolisi? I wouldn't have said immense power, I would have said guts and sheer heart.
Good point on Suafoa.
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@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Kaino was openside-sized? And Read had decent height for an 8.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Kaino was openside-sized? And Read had decent height for an 8.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Kaino was openside-sized? And Read had decent height for an 8.
Yeah Read played bigger than he was especially with the ball in hand
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
I know super rugby form doesn't mean much
But if I was in charge of picking the loose forwards
I'm picking Harmon at 7, the only guy in NZ rugby still hard at the ball
I've got Akira Ioane at 8 because I know he will get me through a defensive line
And I have Finau at 6 for very fucking hard shoulders.On the bench is either Ardie Savea or Sotutu to offer something different late in a game
I have height. I have balance. I have heat on the ground. I gave guys who are hard to tackle. I have guys who you don't want to he hit by
- FINAU
- BLACKADDER
- SAVEA
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
I know super rugby form doesn't mean much
But if I was in charge of picking the loose forwards
I'm picking Harmon at 7, the only guy in NZ rugby still hard at the ball
I've got Akira Ioane at 8 because I know he will get me through a defensive line
And I have Finau at 6 for very fucking hard shoulders.On the bench is either Ardie Savea or Sotutu to offer something different late in a game
I have height. I have balance. I have heat on the ground. I gave guys who are hard to tackle. I have guys who you don't want to he hit by
- FINAU
- BLACKADDER
- SAVEA
That isn't bad actually, def would have more energy.
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The problem of having Savea and Cane in the same lineup is multi-dimensional. Grace (a real lineout specialist) or Sotutu at No.8 with another option at 6 would really be another arrow in the quiver.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
The problem of having Savea and Cane in the same lineup is multi-dimensional. Grace (a real lineout specialist) or Sotutu at No.8 with another option at 6 would really be another arrow in the quiver.
Yes, Savea and Cane together, how many tests? They should be a smooth as silk combo by now.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Kaino was openside-sized? And Read had decent height for an 8.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Kaino was openside-sized? And Read had decent height for an 8.
Illustrating my poorly made point.
Where are the new Kaino and Read? Virtually lock size. In fact both had been known to play there.
We've got Cane, Savea, Papalii, Jacobson, Blackadder...
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Interesting to hear Ryan say that if we had a full deck we would be able to compete. So he's admitting that the backups are shit. That sure doesn't fill me with confidence, perhaps they should have picked a better squad.
