NZR review
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys and
It will (likely) still occur. But just a different group of boys. And girls. And also, likely all sorts of diversity appointments. Without the grounded PU men (and women) to stop any crap.
And in general, from what I've seen Pilkinton seems OK. But I can understand why some PUs are making a stand on this
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys and
It will (likely) still occur. But just a different group of boys. And girls. And also, likely all sorts of diversity appointments. Without the grounded PU men (and women) to stop any crap.
The only thing grounded about them is the anchor that's their debt. A bunch of PUs have demonstrated they've no business running a commercial operation.
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The GOAT speaks
“It is not like we are trying to push our own agenda. This is something that people who have heard from all of the game – every stakeholder – have come up with and is what they think is best.
“That’s the bit people have to remember – all the feedback from everyone is put into this [Pilkington Review report] and they have come back with their findings.
This point is very pertinent, why only PU board experience
“But you start eliminating people who might have had different experiences. People who might have been on the board of a Super Rugby club or done other things who might add just as much expertise as someone who has provincial union experience.
And indeed
“And at the end of the day, the provincial unions still have the ultimate say. They can remove the board if they are not happy. They still have that right.
@Machpants said in NZR review:
The GOAT speaks
“It is not like we are trying to push our own agenda. This is something that people who have heard from all of the game – every stakeholder – have come up with and is what they think is best.
“That’s the bit people have to remember – all the feedback from everyone is put into this [Pilkington Review report] and they have come back with their findings.
This point is very pertinent, why only PU board experience
“But you start eliminating people who might have had different experiences. People who might have been on the board of a Super Rugby club or done other things who might add just as much expertise as someone who has provincial union experience.
And indeed
“And at the end of the day, the provincial unions still have the ultimate say. They can remove the board if they are not happy. They still have that right.
It's easy to read between the lines here, this will confirm that Super rugby is the premier product and put the PUs likely on a lower level.
This feels very 2008-2009, the PUs contribute and may even agree with proposals until they realise that they will also be the ones to lose their spots and importance. In 2008-2009 it was the weak provinces, now it is the powerhouses (at least at the NPC level).
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@Machpants McGod seems to be talking a lot of sense. Jock Hobbs would be proud
@canefan said in NZR review:
@Machpants McGod seems to be talking a lot of sense. Jock Hobbs would be proud
Jock Hobbs had some business failures from memory….
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys and
It will (likely) still occur. But just a different group of boys. And girls. And also, likely all sorts of diversity appointments. Without the grounded PU men (and women) to stop any crap.
And in general, from what I've seen Pilkinton seems OK. But I can understand why some PUs are making a stand on this
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys and
It will (likely) still occur. But just a different group of boys. And girls. And also, likely all sorts of diversity appointments. Without the grounded PU men (and women) to stop any crap.
And in general, from what I've seen Pilkinton seems OK. But I can understand why some PUs are making a stand on this
One of the disasters of the last 30/ 40 years has been the privatisation of public infrastructure assets. Most often because short term outcomes are prioritised over longer term ones, for profit by Boards full of commercial acumen. Remember also that a high % of leaders are narcissistic
Yes some PUs should pull their horns in re salaries but giving up their positions on the board would lose a fundamental connection between grassroots rugby and the running of our game. A huge mistake.
I note that all the comentators mentioned are ex players.
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Riskier than PUs having to be propped up after losing millions of dollars?
It's pretty reasonable to ensure that you get the best people on the board, not just from PU unions where the requirements are different. A robust, merit based, appointment process is not magic, it's how you run a business and ensure it's sustainable.
Jobs for the boys and endless bailouts have to stop.
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@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys and
It will (likely) still occur. But just a different group of boys. And girls. And also, likely all sorts of diversity appointments. Without the grounded PU men (and women) to stop any crap.
And in general, from what I've seen Pilkinton seems OK. But I can understand why some PUs are making a stand on this
One of the disasters of the last 30/ 40 years has been the privatisation of public infrastructure assets. Most often because short term outcomes are prioritised over longer term ones, for profit by Boards full of commercial acumen. Remember also that a high % of leaders are narcissistic
Yes some PUs should pull their horns in re salaries but giving up their positions on the board would lose a fundamental connection between grassroots rugby and the running of our game. A huge mistake.
I note that all the comentators mentioned are ex players.
@kev said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Yes some PUs should pull their horns in re salaries but giving up their positions on the board would lose a fundamental connection between grassroots rugby and the running of our game. A huge mistake.
That connection still exists with the Stakeholder Council, who can influence or sit on the Appointments Panel for the Board.
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The only way I think this is really going to work is if the PU's become fully amatuer focusing on the grass roots of the game - i.e all ther $ goes into rugby development in the region. There are no professional i.e. NPC teams.
It would appear that a lot of the financial mis-management at the PU's is that they spend far too much trying to win the NPC - this then has to be removed.
Provinces then only play as trials for the SR side - or as friendly match's without a competition ladder.
Professional rugby then starts at the super rugby level and not lower than that.
Of course this wouldn't work out perfectly either, we could just lose a whole lot of NPC players oversea's, club rugby could fall to pieces as without the lure of a rep team lots of people don't want to play.
It would sure be efficient, wheter it's the best for the game, or just the people at the top making the $ who knows, but I suspect the latter.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys
That's exactly what it is.
I can just imagine the appointment process - honest as the day is long, a good hard man, a true stalwart of the game, and no fuckin idea how to run a business properly.@Frank said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys
That's exactly what it is.
I can just imagine the appointment process - honest as the day is long, a good hard man, a true stalwart of the game, and no fuckin idea how to run a business properly.Like Sam Cane and Ritchie McCaw for example?
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@Frank said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys
That's exactly what it is.
I can just imagine the appointment process - honest as the day is long, a good hard man, a true stalwart of the game, and no fuckin idea how to run a business properly.Like Sam Cane and Ritchie McCaw for example?
@Windows97 said in NZR review:
@Frank said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Jobs for the boys
That's exactly what it is.
I can just imagine the appointment process - honest as the day is long, a good hard man, a true stalwart of the game, and no fuckin idea how to run a business properly.Like Sam Cane and Ritchie McCaw for example?
They're not the ones who ran up the big debts mate. Proven idiots gotta go.
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Riskier than PUs having to be propped up after losing millions of dollars?
It's pretty reasonable to ensure that you get the best people on the board, not just from PU unions where the requirements are different. A robust, merit based, appointment process is not magic, it's how you run a business and ensure it's sustainable.
Jobs for the boys and endless bailouts have to stop.
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Riskier than PUs having to be propped up after losing millions of dollars?
It's pretty reasonable to ensure that you get the best people on the board, not just from PU unions where the requirements are different. A robust, merit based, appointment process is not magic, it's how you run a business and ensure it's sustainable.
Jobs for the boys and endless bailouts have to stop.
PUs are expected to lose money up to a point, there main job it to run and promotr the grassroots game, and unless you want them to start charging kids etc to play the game like they do in Aus etc?
We have seen that really in the main PUs do what they can to run and promote the game on a shoestring.I not against the Pilkington report, but suggesting PUs shouldn't be propped up with coin is to suggest that our grassroots game isn't the most important part of our game, and in general have least way of hauling money in.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
Riskier than PUs having to be propped up after losing millions of dollars?
It's pretty reasonable to ensure that you get the best people on the board, not just from PU unions where the requirements are different. A robust, merit based, appointment process is not magic, it's how you run a business and ensure it's sustainable.
Jobs for the boys and endless bailouts have to stop.
PUs are expected to lose money up to a point, there main job it to run and promotr the grassroots game, and unless you want them to start charging kids etc to play the game like they do in Aus etc?
We have seen that really in the main PUs do what they can to run and promote the game on a shoestring.I not against the Pilkington report, but suggesting PUs shouldn't be propped up with coin is to suggest that our grassroots game isn't the most important part of our game, and in general have least way of hauling money in.
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
I not against the Pilkington report, but suggesting PUs shouldn't be propped up with coin is to suggest that our grassroots game isn't the most important part of our game, and in general have least way of hauling money in.
PUs are propped up with coin.
Clubs are grassroots.I don't see how that changes with implementing key aspects of the Pilkington Review.
edit - keep in mind that provincial unions don't appear to be losing vast sums of money organising amateur leagues - it's spending sums on trying to win the NPC. Hence why their input into running a professional organisation is less than desired. Generally speaking they don't have the skills so what use are they at the highest level?
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@canefan said in NZR review:
@Machpants McGod seems to be talking a lot of sense. Jock Hobbs would be proud
Jock Hobbs had some business failures from memory….
@kev said in NZR review:
@canefan said in NZR review:
@Machpants McGod seems to be talking a lot of sense. Jock Hobbs would be proud
Jock Hobbs had some business failures from memory….
But he did a lot of good for NZ rugby at a difficult time
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And to add the other thing I noted in NZRPA's latter, the talk of making up a commercial arm using reps from super clubs etc?
See the confusion, you can have a board made up of reps of super but not PUs? Seems a bit of confusion everwhere.@Dan54 After reading up from the last few months info, there does look to possibly be a fear from the PUs when things are all being analyzed that Super Rugby Unions will takeover the running of rugby i.e the secondary schools, club comps etc over the 5 areas or even expanded to 8 or 9. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but there has been talk from Super CEOs about a 24 week comp which can only be done with NPC out of the way.
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@Dan54 After reading up from the last few months info, there does look to possibly be a fear from the PUs when things are all being analyzed that Super Rugby Unions will takeover the running of rugby i.e the secondary schools, club comps etc over the 5 areas or even expanded to 8 or 9. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but there has been talk from Super CEOs about a 24 week comp which can only be done with NPC out of the way.
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
I not against the Pilkington report, but suggesting PUs shouldn't be propped up with coin is to suggest that our grassroots game isn't the most important part of our game, and in general have least way of hauling money in.
PUs are propped up with coin.
Clubs are grassroots.I don't see how that changes with implementing key aspects of the Pilkington Review.
edit - keep in mind that provincial unions don't appear to be losing vast sums of money organising amateur leagues - it's spending sums on trying to win the NPC. Hence why their input into running a professional organisation is less than desired. Generally speaking they don't have the skills so what use are they at the highest level?
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
I not against the Pilkington report, but suggesting PUs shouldn't be propped up with coin is to suggest that our grassroots game isn't the most important part of our game, and in general have least way of hauling money in.
PUs are propped up with coin.
Clubs are grassroots.I don't see how that changes with implementing key aspects of the Pilkington Review.
edit - keep in mind that provincial unions don't appear to be losing vast sums of money organising amateur leagues - it's spending sums on trying to win the NPC. Hence why their input into running a professional organisation is less than desired. Generally speaking they don't have the skills so what use are they at the highest level?
Disagree, but been on PU and know how much we spent on junior leagues , all the age grade teams etc. I know some spend too much on NPC teams, but take my word for it best way to get rugby on a high in your area? Get your rep team winning unfortunately, it all relates. NZ rugby goes well when ABs going well and what also happens it goes down to grassroots. As I say I think in end Pilkington isn't bad, but don't ever be under any impression that not putting money into age grade doesn't help make NZ rugby what it is!
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@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
I not against the Pilkington report, but suggesting PUs shouldn't be propped up with coin is to suggest that our grassroots game isn't the most important part of our game, and in general have least way of hauling money in.
PUs are propped up with coin.
Clubs are grassroots.I don't see how that changes with implementing key aspects of the Pilkington Review.
edit - keep in mind that provincial unions don't appear to be losing vast sums of money organising amateur leagues - it's spending sums on trying to win the NPC. Hence why their input into running a professional organisation is less than desired. Generally speaking they don't have the skills so what use are they at the highest level?
Disagree, but been on PU and know how much we spent on junior leagues , all the age grade teams etc. I know some spend too much on NPC teams, but take my word for it best way to get rugby on a high in your area? Get your rep team winning unfortunately, it all relates. NZ rugby goes well when ABs going well and what also happens it goes down to grassroots. As I say I think in end Pilkington isn't bad, but don't ever be under any impression that not putting money into age grade doesn't help make NZ rugby what it is!
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
I not against the Pilkington report, but suggesting PUs shouldn't be propped up with coin is to suggest that our grassroots game isn't the most important part of our game, and in general have least way of hauling money in.
PUs are propped up with coin.
Clubs are grassroots.I don't see how that changes with implementing key aspects of the Pilkington Review.
edit - keep in mind that provincial unions don't appear to be losing vast sums of money organising amateur leagues - it's spending sums on trying to win the NPC. Hence why their input into running a professional organisation is less than desired. Generally speaking they don't have the skills so what use are they at the highest level?
Disagree, but been on PU and know how much we spent on junior leagues , all the age grade teams etc. I know some spend too much on NPC teams, but take my word for it best way to get rugby on a high in your area? Get your rep team winning unfortunately, it all relates. NZ rugby goes well when ABs going well and what also happens it goes down to grassroots. As I say I think in end Pilkington isn't bad, but don't ever be under any impression that not putting money into age grade doesn't help make NZ rugby what it is!
Pilkington isn't preventing money being put into age grades.
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@Dan54 After reading up from the last few months info, there does look to possibly be a fear from the PUs when things are all being analyzed that Super Rugby Unions will takeover the running of rugby i.e the secondary schools, club comps etc over the 5 areas or even expanded to 8 or 9. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but there has been talk from Super CEOs about a 24 week comp which can only be done with NPC out of the way.
@BorderJB said in NZR review:
@Dan54 After reading up from the last few months info, there does look to possibly be a fear from the PUs when things are all being analyzed that Super Rugby Unions will takeover the running of rugby i.e the secondary schools, club comps etc over the 5 areas or even expanded to 8 or 9. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but there has been talk from Super CEOs about a 24 week comp which can only be done with NPC out of the way.
I know , like you I don't know who is right or wrong, but super rugby taking over club rugby etc will never ever work unless we want to kill grassroots. All that system would do is turn Super clubs into PUs so really no difference.
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@BorderJB the NPC is not sustainable as a Pro comp. An extended SR over an amateur provincial level is a realistic option. There is no money or real interest in the NPC now, on a scale to support it. And SR is way too short
@Machpants its possible we could end up with 1st XV then straight into Super Academy, with a Super Development level competition played under Super Rugby.
Everyone else just plays community club rugby.
