NZR review

Winger

@Duluth said in NZR review:

"We have more than 34 'Rugby' Boards, 350 Board Members (more Board members than our full-time professional player base)"

are those board members all full time?

I doubt if many (or any) would be full time. And the majority wouldn't get paid very much

I don't think the issue is Board Members of PU's. It's mainly the salaries of the NPC players I assume. And the PU's are in a tough position. NPC crowds have fallen away especially for many big unions and if the team is crap they certainly won't improve. So, they pay money to try and keep a good side hoping the rest will fall into place (sponsorship and crowds)

It hasn't really worked though

Some think the solution in independent Board members. I have doubts. It might lead to just a lot of diversity appointments who are worse than the current lot.

Duluth

@Chris said in NZR review:

@Duluth said in NZR review:

@Chris said in NZR review:

so still PU's on the board ?

But largely irrelevant

The NZRPA added that their break away from the establishment would include a new body to govern the professional game in New Zealand. Directors would be appointed by the professional players.

NZ Rugby would make appointments to this new body, as will, likely it's new commercial arm NZRC.

Super Rugby Clubs will be represented and "tangata whenua will of course be inherent".

"This new body, for example called ‘The Professional Rugby Tribunal’, will govern, in some sort of partnership with NZRU, the sale of media rights, the contracting of sponsors, the revenue share model, international and national competitions, the high-performance programmes and development pathways and any other activity that impacts the careers, safety, remuneration, workplace and development of professional players. NZRU will continue to govern alone the community and amateur game including provincial rugby, club rugby and other non-professional rugby activities."

Ok, will this impact the NPC it looks like it will as won't the PRT want to filter the majority of the money in to the high end professionals and the elite pathways under Npc, then the NPC will most probably drift away to an amateur comp.

The PU's would have to work with the new body to get the pro players. Hows that professional relationship going?

Winger

@Chris said in NZR review:

To many people wanting to hold on to power.

I'm sure most wouldn't give up power if they had it. And they aren't I think pushing for elected member (maybe Im wrong - I haven't seen details on the PUs proposal) just having some PU experience

But maybe this is in fact in the game's best interest. To keep a voice at the top table to people who at least have some PU experience (only 3 out of 9). Davenport could be 1 for example (even though she was appointed not elected)

Dan54

@Winger said in NZR review:

@gt12 said in NZR review:

The breakdown gets into it from 26:30.

Mils was not holding back.

Kirwan says Auckland, BOP, Wellington, Hawkes Bay, Canterbury, NH are against and have the votes to block it.

I think they were too afraid to say the quiet part out aloud, which is that the future is an amateur NPC and the PUs know it, and that dialling back their overspending on those teams is the fastest way of righting the finances and setting a clear boundary between the amateur and pro games.

Assuming the analysis here the be correct (pretty huge assumption), we'll have the NZRPA withdraw from the colllective bargaining agreement negiotiations.

Is Mils a bit stupid? As his summary was really poor.

If the only difference is three board members (out of 9) need a PU background (along with the other qualities) who cares

This discussion is poor. And that is maybe NZRs biggest issue. The quality of our rugby top minds discussing these issues. I doubt if many would even know a good proposal if it was presented to them

Kirwan seems about as clueless as Mils. Jeff might be a bit smarter but his comment on the increase in spending seemed to lack any depth

If you have got stomach issues don't watch this segment.

I don't think you realised how that discussion was being run. One panelist each had to take one of the suggetions and run with it. Not sure they were actually arguibfg for what they actually believed or wanted. It was trying to show the 3 options basically.

Kiwiwomble

@Dan54 was it? thats not how i took it at all, dont feel any of them was even playing devils advocate

Dan54

@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:

@Dan54 was it? thats not how i took it at all, dont feel any of them was even playing devils advocate

Yep, they said at beginning of show they were going to explain the options in a simple way. Not sure they succeeded in making it simple .

BorderJB

@pakman heres the link to the proposals, i think the top board is a 3 year term. https://www.nzrugby.co.nz/governance-review

Duluth

This pdf has a comparison of the proposals

At the request of the governance review commissioning parties (NZR and New Zealand Rugby Players Association), the independent review panel has reviewed the two proposals being presented to the SGM on 30 May. The independent review panel have considered whether each proposal aligns to the principles and recommendations of the governance report and if one or both proposals reflect the intent of the review.

Panel-commentary-on-the-NZRU-SGM-proposals-15-May-.pdf

I see proposal 2 differs in many ways.

Duluth

Lets keep this thread about the governance review

The discussion about possible SR formats is over here:
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/6616/super-rugby-the-future/232

Duluth

pakman

@Duluth said in NZR review:

If the key benefit of proposal 1 is that it is In accord with the review, I’m afraid my suspicion is that the review itself may be the problem.

In UK investors are waking up to the fact that contemporary corporate governance ‘best practice’ is NEGATIVELY correlated with performance.

Independence suffers from the major drawback that there’s nothing like having skin in the game for having genuine empathy with the underlying outcomes.

Duluth

@pakman said in NZR review:

If the key benefit of proposal 1 is that it is In accord with the review, I’m afraid my suspicion is that the review itself may be the problem.

The claim from many supporting for Proposal 2 was that it was the same as the Proposal 1 with one small change

nzzp

@Duluth said in NZR review:

@pakman said in NZR review:

If the key benefit of proposal 1 is that it is In accord with the review, I’m afraid my suspicion is that the review itself may be the problem.

The claim from many supporting for Proposal 2 was that it was the same as the Proposal 1 with one small change

The people emphasising the difference are the independent review panel.

Frankly, the review should be convincing by itself. It could be too simplistic to accuse the PU of being selfish if they (the owners of the sport) aren't convinced by the proposal.

Duluth

@nzzp said in NZR review:

The people emphasising the difference are the independent review panel.

Yes, I made that clear in my post

@nzzp said in NZR review:

Frankly, the review should be convincing by itself. It could be too simplistic to accuse the PU of being selfish if they (the owners of the sport) aren't convinced by the proposal.

Basically agree. That is why the review should've been voted up or down a long time ago

I think the whole process has been about trying to create a deadlock to kill any reform

nzzp

@Duluth said in NZR review:

I think the whole process has been about trying to create a deadlock to kill any reform

And here's the thing - the PU need to let go of some elements of their sport in order to survive. I think they still need the ultimate backstop to break it all up if it goes AWOL - some 'independent' organsations self-capture and become about serving themselves, rather than their members.

This feels like a monkey trap for the PU. They have to let go to live, but they may not be able to ...

Winger

Thankfully someone has done a comparison

But this sort of comment doesn't help

The logic behind the requirement is unclear.

Then read the article from the WRU Chair for example

And the MAIN difference seems to be to have 3 board members with PU experience.

Analysis of Proposal Two
The board

Best possible candidates
All positions are open to application by any person. However, there is a requirement for at least three directors to have previously served on provincial union boards. It may be that this is the case for some successful candidates but mandating the requirement is a limiting factor on the potential pool of candidates. The logic behind the requirement is unclear.
This is not consistent with the report
Independence
All members will be independent. However, noting the comments above the panel would view this proposal as not reflecting full independence.
This is partially consistent with the report
Governance background
Again, the requirement for service on provincial union boards potentially limits the search for relevant governance skills. As noted, this service alone is not guaranteed to deliver the required skills.
This is partially consistent with the report
Rugby knowledge
Appointment is with reference to the skills and competencies framework. That makes clear the requirement for relevant rugby knowledge. However, this proposal gives strong weight to knowledge of provincial union governance.
This is partially consistent with the report
Diversity
This proposal suggest no change to the skills and competencies framework in this regard. However, again, the stipulation of three directors with provincial union governance service has the potential to limit the divert of thought around the NZR
board table
This is broadly consistent with the report
Tangata whenua
The skills and competencies framework and the proposed constitutional amendments make the commitment clear. This proposal adds further specificity. However, in A2 it
retains reference that the NZR Board will be able to continue to appoint one of its Board members as an NZR representative on the NZMRB.
This is partially consistent with the report
Pasifika
The skills and competencies makes clear the need for a collective understanding at the board table. This proposal adds further specificity
This is consistent with the report

Winger

@Duluth said in NZR review:

@pakman said in NZR review:

If the key benefit of proposal 1 is that it is In accord with the review, I’m afraid my suspicion is that the review itself may be the problem.

The claim from many supporting for Proposal 2 was that it was the same as the Proposal 1 with one small change

For The BOARD. This comparison has taken ONE difference (PU experience) and used this one difference to make it seem as if proposal 2 is completely and utterly different

SouthernMann

Paul Cully from Stuff talks to SENZ Scotty Stevenson about the upcoming vote and the implications https://open.spotify.com/episode/70Sq3NJj6Cx8DFalPZuUHW?si=95rAmhYPTyOwsIrs_4sgqQ

gt12

Cully said the quiet part out aloud:

We can't really have both a (professional) PU and Super rugby competition in such a small country. It's been coming since 1996.

Jamie Wall outlined the crux of the issue too, here:

The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.

pakman

@Winger said in NZR review:

Thankfully someone has done a comparison

But this sort of comment doesn't help

The logic behind the requirement is unclear.

Then read the article from the WRU Chair for example

And the MAIN difference seems to be to have 3 board members with PU experience.

Analysis of Proposal Two
The board

Best possible candidates
All positions are open to application by any person. However, there is a requirement for at least three directors to have previously served on provincial union boards. It may be that this is the case for some successful candidates but mandating the requirement is a limiting factor on the potential pool of candidates. The logic behind the requirement is unclear.
This is not consistent with the report
Independence
All members will be independent. However, noting the comments above the panel would view this proposal as not reflecting full independence.
This is partially consistent with the report
Governance background
Again, the requirement for service on provincial union boards potentially limits the search for relevant governance skills. As noted, this service alone is not guaranteed to deliver the required skills.
This is partially consistent with the report
Rugby knowledge
Appointment is with reference to the skills and competencies framework. That makes clear the requirement for relevant rugby knowledge. However, this proposal gives strong weight to knowledge of provincial union governance.
This is partially consistent with the report
Diversity
This proposal suggest no change to the skills and competencies framework in this regard. However, again, the stipulation of three directors with provincial union governance service has the potential to limit the divert of thought around the NZR
board table
This is broadly consistent with the report
Tangata whenua
The skills and competencies framework and the proposed constitutional amendments make the commitment clear. This proposal adds further specificity. However, in A2 it
retains reference that the NZR Board will be able to continue to appoint one of its Board members as an NZR representative on the NZMRB.
This is partially consistent with the report
Pasifika
The skills and competencies makes clear the need for a collective understanding at the board table. This proposal adds further specificity
This is consistent with the report

I know the players (and others) are hacked off at PUs but having a baked in input at Board level is useful and the 'concerns' about the 'impact' on 'independence' is a bit like the Catholic church insisting priests can't be married.

As for limiting the supply of candidates, sounds just like ideological bleating.

Whoever's driving this fairy tale ought to get a grip (on reality).

The Silver Fern

NZR review