NZR review
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann said in NZR review:
@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
question, If the NPC was no more, Unions MIGHT put together Rep teams but say no formal NPC comp...do the Super franchises have the infrastructure to scout club comps? is that what we'd expect them to go looking for talent in club comps?
They are generally scouting out of schools rugby. Club rugby and to a certain extent provincial rugby are missed steps. Very few guys come through who have not previously been identified and ear marked. Lio-Willie and Moorby are a couple from the last few years. But, most are earmarked as Super potential players by the time they are 17 or 18. The steps of prem colts, provincial colts, prem rugby, provincial rugby and then super are long gone.
I disagree Southern, they are certainly scouted at schools but the vast majority learn their rugby at provincial rugby. I not saying there couldn't be a few less provincial teams, but I firmly believe if we want to kill depth in NZ rugby cutting provincial rugby is first place to start.
Provincial rugby may play a key part in their development, but player's paths are already mapped out by the time they are running around in the NPC come August/September.
When Southland played Otago over the weekend. The best halfback on display was Jay Renton. The 25-year-old from Southland. He isn't moving up in the professional ranks here. The Highlanders have already gone all in on Arscott and Hastie. Hastie played Super Rugby before he did NPC. AJ Faleafaga and Jack Taylor had signed professional contracts before playing NPC.
For the guys who have storming provincial seasons there might be a contract or two available. Or an injury replacement spot waiting for them. Is it worth it for them? Are they better off going overseas for six months, coming back and giving it another crack?
Is NPC high performance rugby? Do we have the money to ensure these guys are training to the level required of high performance rugby?
What happens to the guys who are late developers? The lads who are involved in the Schools camps, the U19 squads and don't quite make it?
@SouthernMann I get your point Southern, I ask why RA is trying to come up with a 3rd tier comp I agree almost all players are earmarked at college age, but by christ the day we go down the school, academy, super route I believe we will suffer big time. I understand some players perhaps don't need playing and learning with anadd against experienced players, but I think the majority it help, and is one of our strengths!
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Quick note (as I haven't finished reading the report I don't want to get too much into it until I've finished) but isn't the competition makeup discussion jumping the gun? This is a report on governance, and mostly on the make up of the Board, the report writers have made clear "their" thoughts on the competition makeup, but it's worthwhile considering that one key stakeholder does not rate a proper mention in this report - Sky. They state they spoke with broadcasters but I can't see where that filters down into the actual report itself. Any decision on competition makeup, regardless of the outcome of this report will made in conjunction with Sky (or some other magical broadcaster NZR think they can find).
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Quick note (as I haven't finished reading the report I don't want to get too much into it until I've finished) but isn't the competition makeup discussion jumping the gun? This is a report on governance, and mostly on the make up of the Board, the report writers have made clear "their" thoughts on the competition makeup, but it's worthwhile considering that one key stakeholder does not rate a proper mention in this report - Sky. They state they spoke with broadcasters but I can't see where that filters down into the actual report itself. Any decision on competition makeup, regardless of the outcome of this report will made in conjunction with Sky (or some other magical broadcaster NZR think they can find).
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Quick note (as I haven't finished reading the report I don't want to get too much into it until I've finished) but isn't the competition makeup discussion jumping the gun? This is a report on governance, and mostly on the make up of the Board, the report writers have made clear "their" thoughts on the competition makeup, but it's worthwhile considering that one key stakeholder does not rate a proper mention in this report - Sky. They state they spoke with broadcasters but I can't see where that filters down into the actual report itself. Any decision on competition makeup, regardless of the outcome of this report will made in conjunction with Sky (or some other magical broadcaster NZR think they can find).
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Quick note (as I haven't finished reading the report I don't want to get too much into it until I've finished) but isn't the competition makeup discussion jumping the gun? This is a report on governance, and mostly on the make up of the Board, the report writers have made clear "their" thoughts on the competition makeup, but it's worthwhile considering that one key stakeholder does not rate a proper mention in this report - Sky. They state they spoke with broadcasters but I can't see where that filters down into the actual report itself. Any decision on competition makeup, regardless of the outcome of this report will made in conjunction with Sky (or some other magical broadcaster NZR think they can find).
@Nepia said in NZR review:
Quick note (as I haven't finished reading the report I don't want to get too much into it until I've finished) but isn't the competition makeup discussion jumping the gun? This is a report on governance, and mostly on the make up of the Board, the report writers have made clear "their" thoughts on the competition makeup, but it's worthwhile considering that one key stakeholder does not rate a proper mention in this report - Sky. They state they spoke with broadcasters but I can't see where that filters down into the actual report itself. Any decision on competition makeup, regardless of the outcome of this report will made in conjunction with Sky (or some other magical broadcaster NZR think they can find).
the nerve of this bloke, getting his facts straight before wading in like he's better than us
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"The cost of staging an average NPC match is about $400,000"
@mikedogz said in NZR review:
"The cost of staging an average NPC match is about $400,000"
The operating costs to open the doors of the large stadiums would be huge. That's why Waikato has only used the main Brian Perry stand for the NPC games for a few years now. Less staff are needed for gates, security, food vendors etc. Auckland and Wellington should be doing the same to reduce costs.
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@mikedogz said in NZR review:
"The cost of staging an average NPC match is about $400,000"
The operating costs to open the doors of the large stadiums would be huge. That's why Waikato has only used the main Brian Perry stand for the NPC games for a few years now. Less staff are needed for gates, security, food vendors etc. Auckland and Wellington should be doing the same to reduce costs.
Eden park hasn’t been fully open for NPC matches for 4-5 years. All the lounges consolidate into the balcony bar in the south stand. Top tier closed. For a while they were pushing everyone to the south stand but there’s not much difference in allowing the north stand to have a few people on the lower level
It’s a shame the cameras are also in the south stand
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Eden park hasn’t been fully open for NPC matches for 4-5 years. All the lounges consolidate into the balcony bar in the south stand. Top tier closed. For a while they were pushing everyone to the south stand but there’s not much difference in allowing the north stand to have a few people on the lower level
It’s a shame the cameras are also in the south stand
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@Duluth doesn't seem like rocket surgery to direct to the crowds to the stand opposite the camera
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@Kiwiwomble the lounge sizes are very different. Opening the balcony bar is 100% the correct choice.
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@Duluth was meaning more just the bums on seats kind of crowd
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@Kiwiwomble If you mixed and matched you would be opening multiple gates. Trust me, they've made the right decision for multiple reasons
@Duluth i wasn't specifically talking about eden park, i see thats not clear, apologies, i only meant in general...where practical....it seems like a good idea to keep the crowds in the same area for all the reasons others have mentioned (easier to marshall etc) plus it just looks better on TV
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I dont' think the NPC will go, nor do I think it should. It should probably get a new format (or return to an old format) with more divisions and/or fewer teams. NPC in my view is a necessary pathway in-between club/school rugby and Super Rugby. The step from club/school rugby to SR is too big.
Also, and maybe people from the SR main centres just don't understand this, but in the smaller provinces you won't get the same sort of tribalism for SR that you see in NPC. That tribalism in the main centres may have (in part) shifted from NPC to SR because of having the SR franchise there. The connection with a SR franchise is to a great degree missing outside the SR main centres. Remove NPC, and the interest in watching rugby will diminish in provinces without a team in the main competition because it's not "for us" and "from us".
I disagree with the idea of adding more NZ teams to an enlarged SR (replacing NPC). It will dilute the player pool in NZ and the quality of rugby would go down. Rugby in NZ could end up in a same downward spiral as Australia that has too many teams. SR should be an elite competition with better quality rugby. You don't get bums on seats with rugby at the level of the Rebels, Waratahs or Reds if that's your highest level of competition. Nor would it be a good preparation for the All Blacks.
Whatever they do, some things are crucial:
- unions/clubs should be forced to stay within their budget;
- a system should be set-up that ensures that there is a pathway to pro-rugby in provinces that miss out on having a team in the major competition(s). Otherwise, a lot of talent may remain undiscovered, or stops playing. This is not just scouting. It's also player development in some form (e.g. regular rugby clinics). Super Rugby franchises should probably have more than one academy and follow the example of the Crusaders, e.g. the Hurricanes should have an Academy in Welington and Napier; the Chiefs in Hamilton and Tauranga etc etc
- whatever a new NPC competition will look like, unions/clubs with already big player pools shouldn't be allowed to drain away the best players from other provinces. I disagree with the comment that the NPC isn't a provincial competition anymore, because there's some player movement between provinces. More than the core of most teams is still from the province. Smaller provinces sometimes need players from bigger provinces because their pool of players is smaller & local players at an adequate level may not be available. Some player movement from big to small provinces takes away some of the imbalance that exists. Player movement from small to big provinces is - in principle - undesirable.
- irrespective of competition format: NZR needs to up its game and promote the competition(s) properly, increase fan engagement etc.
- also irrespective of competition format: all games should be either televised or livestreamed. If broadcasting a game is taking away bums on seats, do a regional black-out of the game, but still broadcast a game outside the region where it's played. Otherwise, people could never see their own team play away games.
Edited to add an extra point:
- whatever changes will be made, every decision should take into consideration the effect it will have on retaining players in NZ. There have been a lot of complaints this season about the replacement of injured players and that the depth isn't as good anymore as it was, because so many of the fringe players were playing in the MLR. They have to make sure this doesn't get worse.
@Stargazer agree with all of that. I have no real affinity for SR. I watch NZ games because I enjoy rugby but as a competition it lacks the tribal element and it is just not a great competition. I like the current 14 team NPC and think the NZRFU has tanked it and then conveniently said it doesn’t work. It could do with proper management, but if it had to change Duluths regional amalgamation is the best of the bitter pills to swallow.
I also wonder about a rugby Governance review that has 3 professional directors in it and just Graham Mourie. I always though professional rugby should exist to support amateur rugby. In that regard Super should make a shitload and fund NPC. It’s NPC that provides the wide base - always wondered about SR development and age group rugby sides just doubling up. Still reading it though.
Interesting comment that it costs $400k to host an NPC game. Like to know what that cost is? Stadiums, media… surely they could get that down?
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@Stargazer agree with all of that. I have no real affinity for SR. I watch NZ games because I enjoy rugby but as a competition it lacks the tribal element and it is just not a great competition. I like the current 14 team NPC and think the NZRFU has tanked it and then conveniently said it doesn’t work. It could do with proper management, but if it had to change Duluths regional amalgamation is the best of the bitter pills to swallow.
I also wonder about a rugby Governance review that has 3 professional directors in it and just Graham Mourie. I always though professional rugby should exist to support amateur rugby. In that regard Super should make a shitload and fund NPC. It’s NPC that provides the wide base - always wondered about SR development and age group rugby sides just doubling up. Still reading it though.
Interesting comment that it costs $400k to host an NPC game. Like to know what that cost is? Stadiums, media… surely they could get that down?
@kev have to think alot goes into the broadcasting side of things.
I know several years back (c 2018) we needed 10,000 to a blues game at Okara, but that included the fee to the blues for hosting, I think that has since been removed?
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My plan:
Strict salary caps for Super Rugby sides.
Let players with more than 40 AB caps play abroad as long as they commit to a Super franchise for 2 years in a RWC cycle.
Tax-free testimonial games for players who play more than 150 times for their Super franchise.
NPC of 14 sides in two divisions.
Strict salary caps for NPC teams.
Every adult ticket to any NZ Rugby game apart from Tests or Super knockout comes with the possibility of two free complementary tickets for kids.
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@Nepia said in NZR review:
Quick note (as I haven't finished reading the report I don't want to get too much into it until I've finished) but isn't the competition makeup discussion jumping the gun? This is a report on governance, and mostly on the make up of the Board, the report writers have made clear "their" thoughts on the competition makeup, but it's worthwhile considering that one key stakeholder does not rate a proper mention in this report - Sky. They state they spoke with broadcasters but I can't see where that filters down into the actual report itself. Any decision on competition makeup, regardless of the outcome of this report will made in conjunction with Sky (or some other magical broadcaster NZR think they can find).
the nerve of this bloke, getting his facts straight before wading in like he's better than us
@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@Nepia said in NZR review:
Quick note (as I haven't finished reading the report I don't want to get too much into it until I've finished) but isn't the competition makeup discussion jumping the gun? This is a report on governance, and mostly on the make up of the Board, the report writers have made clear "their" thoughts on the competition makeup, but it's worthwhile considering that one key stakeholder does not rate a proper mention in this report - Sky. They state they spoke with broadcasters but I can't see where that filters down into the actual report itself. Any decision on competition makeup, regardless of the outcome of this report will made in conjunction with Sky (or some other magical broadcaster NZR think they can find).
the nerve of this bloke, getting his facts straight before wading in like he's better than us
A part of my job is writing these types of reports, best I not go in half cocked.
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I dont' think the NPC will go, nor do I think it should. It should probably get a new format (or return to an old format) with more divisions and/or fewer teams. NPC in my view is a necessary pathway in-between club/school rugby and Super Rugby. The step from club/school rugby to SR is too big.
Also, and maybe people from the SR main centres just don't understand this, but in the smaller provinces you won't get the same sort of tribalism for SR that you see in NPC. That tribalism in the main centres may have (in part) shifted from NPC to SR because of having the SR franchise there. The connection with a SR franchise is to a great degree missing outside the SR main centres. Remove NPC, and the interest in watching rugby will diminish in provinces without a team in the main competition because it's not "for us" and "from us".
I disagree with the idea of adding more NZ teams to an enlarged SR (replacing NPC). It will dilute the player pool in NZ and the quality of rugby would go down. Rugby in NZ could end up in a same downward spiral as Australia that has too many teams. SR should be an elite competition with better quality rugby. You don't get bums on seats with rugby at the level of the Rebels, Waratahs or Reds if that's your highest level of competition. Nor would it be a good preparation for the All Blacks.
Whatever they do, some things are crucial:
- unions/clubs should be forced to stay within their budget;
- a system should be set-up that ensures that there is a pathway to pro-rugby in provinces that miss out on having a team in the major competition(s). Otherwise, a lot of talent may remain undiscovered, or stops playing. This is not just scouting. It's also player development in some form (e.g. regular rugby clinics). Super Rugby franchises should probably have more than one academy and follow the example of the Crusaders, e.g. the Hurricanes should have an Academy in Welington and Napier; the Chiefs in Hamilton and Tauranga etc etc
- whatever a new NPC competition will look like, unions/clubs with already big player pools shouldn't be allowed to drain away the best players from other provinces. I disagree with the comment that the NPC isn't a provincial competition anymore, because there's some player movement between provinces. More than the core of most teams is still from the province. Smaller provinces sometimes need players from bigger provinces because their pool of players is smaller & local players at an adequate level may not be available. Some player movement from big to small provinces takes away some of the imbalance that exists. Player movement from small to big provinces is - in principle - undesirable.
- irrespective of competition format: NZR needs to up its game and promote the competition(s) properly, increase fan engagement etc.
- also irrespective of competition format: all games should be either televised or livestreamed. If broadcasting a game is taking away bums on seats, do a regional black-out of the game, but still broadcast a game outside the region where it's played. Otherwise, people could never see their own team play away games.
Edited to add an extra point:
- whatever changes will be made, every decision should take into consideration the effect it will have on retaining players in NZ. There have been a lot of complaints this season about the replacement of injured players and that the depth isn't as good anymore as it was, because so many of the fringe players were playing in the MLR. They have to make sure this doesn't get worse.
@Stargazer said in NZR review:
I dont' think the NPC will go, nor do I think it should. It should probably get a new format (or return to an old format) with more divisions and/or fewer teams. NPC in my view is a necessary pathway in-between club/school rugby and Super Rugby. The step from club/school rugby to SR is too big.
Also, and maybe people from the SR main centres just don't understand this, but in the smaller provinces you won't get the same sort of tribalism for SR that you see in NPC. That tribalism in the main centres may have (in part) shifted from NPC to SR because of having the SR franchise there. The connection with a SR franchise is to a great degree missing outside the SR main centres. Remove NPC, and the interest in watching rugby will diminish in provinces without a team in the main competition because it's not "for us" and "from us".
I disagree with the idea of adding more NZ teams to an enlarged SR (replacing NPC). It will dilute the player pool in NZ and the quality of rugby would go down. Rugby in NZ could end up in a same downward spiral as Australia that has too many teams. SR should be an elite competition with better quality rugby. You don't get bums on seats with rugby at the level of the Rebels, Waratahs or Reds if that's your highest level of competition. Nor would it be a good preparation for the All Blacks.
Whatever they do, some things are crucial:
- unions/clubs should be forced to stay within their budget;
- a system should be set-up that ensures that there is a pathway to pro-rugby in provinces that miss out on having a team in the major competition(s). Otherwise, a lot of talent may remain undiscovered, or stops playing. This is not just scouting. It's also player development in some form (e.g. regular rugby clinics). Super Rugby franchises should probably have more than one academy and follow the example of the Crusaders, e.g. the Hurricanes should have an Academy in Welington and Napier; the Chiefs in Hamilton and Tauranga etc etc
- whatever a new NPC competition will look like, unions/clubs with already big player pools shouldn't be allowed to drain away the best players from other provinces. I disagree with the comment that the NPC isn't a provincial competition anymore, because there's some player movement between provinces. More than the core of most teams is still from the province. Smaller provinces sometimes need players from bigger provinces because their pool of players is smaller & local players at an adequate level may not be available. Some player movement from big to small provinces takes away some of the imbalance that exists. Player movement from small to big provinces is - in principle - undesirable.
- irrespective of competition format: NZR needs to up its game and promote the competition(s) properly, increase fan engagement etc.
- also irrespective of competition format: all games should be either televised or livestreamed. If broadcasting a game is taking away bums on seats, do a regional black-out of the game, but still broadcast a game outside the region where it's played. Otherwise, people could never see their own team play away games.
Edited to add an extra point:
- whatever changes will be made, every decision should take into consideration the effect it will have on retaining players in NZ. There have been a lot of complaints this season about the replacement of injured players and that the depth isn't as good anymore as it was, because so many of the fringe players were playing in the MLR. They have to make sure this doesn't get worse.
Should have had you on the review panel Gazer.
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@Stargazer agree with all of that. I have no real affinity for SR. I watch NZ games because I enjoy rugby but as a competition it lacks the tribal element and it is just not a great competition. I like the current 14 team NPC and think the NZRFU has tanked it and then conveniently said it doesn’t work. It could do with proper management, but if it had to change Duluths regional amalgamation is the best of the bitter pills to swallow.
I also wonder about a rugby Governance review that has 3 professional directors in it and just Graham Mourie. I always though professional rugby should exist to support amateur rugby. In that regard Super should make a shitload and fund NPC. It’s NPC that provides the wide base - always wondered about SR development and age group rugby sides just doubling up. Still reading it though.
Interesting comment that it costs $400k to host an NPC game. Like to know what that cost is? Stadiums, media… surely they could get that down?
@kev said in NZR review:
@Stargazer agree with all of that. I have no real affinity for SR. I watch NZ games because I enjoy rugby but as a competition it lacks the tribal element and it is just not a great competition. I like the current 14 team NPC and think the NZRFU has tanked it and then conveniently said it doesn’t work. It could do with proper management, but if it had to change Duluths regional amalgamation is the best of the bitter pills to swallow.
I also wonder about a rugby Governance review that has 3 professional directors in it and just Graham Mourie. I always though professional rugby should exist to support amateur rugby. In that regard Super should make a shitload and fund NPC. It’s NPC that provides the wide base - always wondered about SR development and age group rugby sides just doubling up. Still reading it though.
Interesting comment that it costs $400k to host an NPC game. Like to know what that cost is? Stadiums, media… surely they could get that down?
Travel? Accommodation? Meals?
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@kev said in NZR review:
@Stargazer agree with all of that. I have no real affinity for SR. I watch NZ games because I enjoy rugby but as a competition it lacks the tribal element and it is just not a great competition. I like the current 14 team NPC and think the NZRFU has tanked it and then conveniently said it doesn’t work. It could do with proper management, but if it had to change Duluths regional amalgamation is the best of the bitter pills to swallow.
I also wonder about a rugby Governance review that has 3 professional directors in it and just Graham Mourie. I always though professional rugby should exist to support amateur rugby. In that regard Super should make a shitload and fund NPC. It’s NPC that provides the wide base - always wondered about SR development and age group rugby sides just doubling up. Still reading it though.
Interesting comment that it costs $400k to host an NPC game. Like to know what that cost is? Stadiums, media… surely they could get that down?
Travel? Accommodation? Meals?
