RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Good questions all of those. Will give you my take on them one-by-one.
Other Bok fans here may have their own views.@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Webb tell me, what’s with the rabid pursuit of SA fans to nominate the current Bok team as the greatest ever and Kolisi as the greatest captain ever so soon after a World Cup win?
I am as bemused by this as you and many others.
My suspicion is that it is a group of somewhat over-excited fans who are pursuing the narrative on social media probably as backlash against the "ugly rugby", you were lucky, you borderline cheat narrative that is also present.
In fairness, no-one in my circle even mentions it - being the best ever. Maybe I just have a more balanced group.Kolisi will be up there with the most revered SA captains, that's for sure. Greatest captain in rugby ever? I am not sure how one even starts to try and measure that.
Personally, they aren’t the best Bok team I’ve seen. That would be the 2007-2009 vintage. PSDT was awesome in the final, but even he’d struggle to dislodge Juan Smith from the 7 jersey.
Again - achieving the back-to-back success is driving this narrative.
For my money 2007-2009 and the 2019 vintage stack up well too.
For what it's worth, I would try and find a way to play both Juan Smith and PSDT if ever it were possible.Back to back is an insane achievement, but the thirst for validation and acknowledgment from Bok fans feels like something else?
Did those years of underachievement leave Bok fans with thin skins? Is it a reaction to foreign media and team coaches who poured scorn on their playing style? Is the outpouring of emotion sheer relief at winning as it deflects away the issues going on in SA right now and shows SA are actually world leading in something?
Yes. To all of the above imo.
It is an overreaction to having something to be proud of, coached and led by people who do it not just for themselves.The Bok team and coaches are unabashedly proud of how they play. So they should. They won 2 world cups. The quest to be seen as the best comes primarily from the SA media and fans.
Intrigued to get a SA perspective from you and any other Bok fans on here.
So broadly:
The fans are proud.
They have something to treasure in a country where bad news sometimes feels like the dominant theme.
It is nice to give the finger to what is perceived as constant negativity and carping from foreign rugby media.Some are just a bit too overexcited to have perspective right now.
But bless them for their enthusiasm.Tremendous post! Thanks for background.
Juan Smith was an extraordinary blind side and part of a superbly balanced Bok trio.
@pakman mostly what jumps out when you start comparing players like PSTD and Smith or teams like 09 or 97 to the current team, is how much better coached the current players and team are.
I’d love to see what Smith could’ve done in this squad under Rassie and Nienaber or how a young Bismarck, Frans Steyn or Skinstad might’ve developed.
Make no mistake, PSTD is a special player, but the huge hits he made repeatedly on midbarrett were set up in the film room and the product of the bok systems tweaked specifically for this game.
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Good questions all of those. Will give you my take on them one-by-one.
Other Bok fans here may have their own views.@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Webb tell me, what’s with the rabid pursuit of SA fans to nominate the current Bok team as the greatest ever and Kolisi as the greatest captain ever so soon after a World Cup win?
I am as bemused by this as you and many others.
My suspicion is that it is a group of somewhat over-excited fans who are pursuing the narrative on social media probably as backlash against the "ugly rugby", you were lucky, you borderline cheat narrative that is also present.
In fairness, no-one in my circle even mentions it - being the best ever. Maybe I just have a more balanced group.Kolisi will be up there with the most revered SA captains, that's for sure. Greatest captain in rugby ever? I am not sure how one even starts to try and measure that.
Personally, they aren’t the best Bok team I’ve seen. That would be the 2007-2009 vintage. PSDT was awesome in the final, but even he’d struggle to dislodge Juan Smith from the 7 jersey.
Again - achieving the back-to-back success is driving this narrative.
For my money 2007-2009 and the 2019 vintage stack up well too.
For what it's worth, I would try and find a way to play both Juan Smith and PSDT if ever it were possible.Back to back is an insane achievement, but the thirst for validation and acknowledgment from Bok fans feels like something else?
Did those years of underachievement leave Bok fans with thin skins? Is it a reaction to foreign media and team coaches who poured scorn on their playing style? Is the outpouring of emotion sheer relief at winning as it deflects away the issues going on in SA right now and shows SA are actually world leading in something?
Yes. To all of the above imo.
It is an overreaction to having something to be proud of, coached and led by people who do it not just for themselves.The Bok team and coaches are unabashedly proud of how they play. So they should. They won 2 world cups. The quest to be seen as the best comes primarily from the SA media and fans.
Intrigued to get a SA perspective from you and any other Bok fans on here.
So broadly:
The fans are proud.
They have something to treasure in a country where bad news sometimes feels like the dominant theme.
It is nice to give the finger to what is perceived as constant negativity and carping from foreign rugby media.Some are just a bit too overexcited to have perspective right now.
But bless them for their enthusiasm.@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
For what it's worth, I would try and find a way to play both Juan Smith and PSDT if ever it were possible.
8 - 0 bench?
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@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
For what it's worth, I would try and find a way to play both Juan Smith and PSDT if ever it were possible.
8 - 0 bench?
@Snowy said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
For what it's worth, I would try and find a way to play both Juan Smith and PSDT if ever it were possible.
8 - 0 bench?
9 minus 1 if they could.
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This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough but to have it reported makes it sound like we are making excuses for the loss. Wish Paul had not reported the story.
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
@Unite said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
Based on what? It's clearly written in the protocol how many phases for general play and that no phase restriction exists for foul play. If it was to be a guideline, it would state such, or they'd use an adjective such as few.
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@Catogrande the refs being told they have to try and determine the "force" of a head shot is actually a massive problem. You'd need a medical degree and to run some tests to see which head knock is worse - they are just judging it on what it looked like, not how serious it actually was. As you allude to that's going to lead to massive inconsistencies as it is largely subjective at the time.
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande the refs being told they have to try and determine the "force" of a head shot is actually a massive problem. You'd need a medical degree and to run some tests to see which head knock is worse - they are just judging it on what it looked like, not how serious it actually was. As you allude to that's going to lead to massive inconsistencies as it is largely subjective at the time.
The idea that Kolisi running 10 metres to hit Ardie in the face with his head had less force than Kriel stepping into a near stationary Cane is fucking laughable.
As ludicrous as Barnes' idiotic call of an absorbing tackle on Retallick. The only thing absorbing the force of that tackle was Brodie's broken cheekbone.
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
Yes but if guilty that does not punish the offending team in the game it happened in and does not recompense the team that was on the wrong end of the offence. It just makes it potentially easier for the teams that follow in the ensuing weeks, whilst also allowing the offending team to factor it all in at a later date.
No easy answers.
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
Yes but if guilty that does not punish the offending team in the game it happened in and does not recompense the team that was on the wrong end of the offence. It just makes it potentially easier for the teams that follow in the ensuing weeks, whilst also allowing the offending team to factor it all in at a later date.
No easy answers.
There are easy answers. You conduct a review with more time for incidents that may include headshots to determine the impact and dispassionately arrive at a suitable punishment of the player.
That way the paying public and the game doesn't suffer immediately. This was the flagship of the game and it was made to look incomprehensible. "Growing the game" my arse.
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This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough but to have it reported makes it sound like we are making excuses for the loss. Wish Paul had not reported the story.
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough but to have it reported makes it sound like we are making excuses for the loss. Wish Paul had not reported the story.
I disagree. Plenty of other teams esp Tier 1 teams, would’ve complained about this.
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough but to have it reported makes it sound like we are making excuses for the loss. Wish Paul had not reported the story.
I disagree. Plenty of other teams esp Tier 1 teams, would’ve complained about this.
@scribe said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough but to have it reported makes it sound like we are making excuses for the loss. Wish Paul had not reported the story.
I disagree. Plenty of other teams esp Tier 1 teams, would’ve complained about this.
My bad. Didn't read the article properly. I thought this was on the even of the final, and not the French game.
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This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough but to have it reported makes it sound like we are making excuses for the loss. Wish Paul had not reported the story.
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough
We didn't book it. The Frogs did it for us.
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough
We didn't book it. The Frogs did it for us.
Yeah, I didn't read the full article. Thought he was referring to the eve of the final and not the French game, and thought we had booked it. My mistake.
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@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough
We didn't book it. The Frogs did it for us.
Yeah, I didn't read the full article. Thought he was referring to the eve of the final and not the French game, and thought we had booked it. My mistake.
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
This is so embarrassing, the world will be laugh at us now. Booking a substandard hotel is bad enough
We didn't book it. The Frogs did it for us.
Yeah, I didn't read the full article. Thought he was referring to the eve of the final and not the French game, and thought we had booked it. My mistake.
The hotels are all sorted by the host nation. But ABs should scout them out beforehand and make sure everything is up to scratch, but they obviously didn't do their due diligence in this case
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@Unite said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
Based on what? It's clearly written in the protocol how many phases for general play and that no phase restriction exists for foul play. If it was to be a guideline, it would state such, or they'd use an adjective such as few.
@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Unite said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
Based on what? It's clearly written in the protocol how many phases for general play and that no phase restriction exists for foul play. If it was to be a guideline, it would state such, or they'd use an adjective such as few.
This is just what was mentioned on podcast. I’ve read the protocol now and maybe the first section titled ‘Guiding Principles’ is where this misunderstanding came from? But the 2 phase thing is clearly not a guideline as they mentioned.
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@Unite said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
Based on what? It's clearly written in the protocol how many phases for general play and that no phase restriction exists for foul play. If it was to be a guideline, it would state such, or they'd use an adjective such as few.
@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Unite said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm afraid I agree with @MiketheSnow.
After my initial indignation I've taken it to mean he didn't see the replay and explained what he (thought he) saw.
Not that he apologised because he got it wrong and had subsequently seen the error of his ways.
i.e., "Sorry, didn't see the replay." Full stop.
"I thought you stayed on him, I didn't see you come off enough"HOWEVER the decision was still wrong and I don't see why the TMO can't intervene on that scoring play but can (not that he could really) on a knock on.
The TMO can't rule on more than 2 phases before a try is scored, but that didn't stop him. What a farce rugby is right now
This was mentioned on the Aotearoa Rugby Pod that it is a guideline, not a rule, the 2 phase thing
Based on what? It's clearly written in the protocol how many phases for general play and that no phase restriction exists for foul play. If it was to be a guideline, it would state such, or they'd use an adjective such as few.
If you want to promote consistency of performance you institute protocols and hard rules. Not guidelines. Amateurish conduct by WR as usual
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Looking at the Frizzel "incident" again, Steven Kitsoff smashes him in the side of the head with his arm. Of course, the TMO completely missed this and YCed Frizzel for falling over. What a farken joke.
