All Blacks 2024
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sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select.
This is true - but, the other side of the equation is that your game plan has to be tailored a bit to the players you have available. E.g. it would be pretty dumb to come up with a gameplan that doesn't suit DMac (or maybe Beaden).
Does make you wonder about halfback selections, because there's quite a lot of different strengths and weaknesses available.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select.
This is true - but, the other side of the equation is that your game plan has to be tailored a bit to the players you have available. E.g. it would be pretty dumb to come up with a gameplan that doesn't suit DMac (or maybe Beaden).
Does make you wonder about halfback selections, because there's quite a lot of different strengths and weaknesses available.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select.
This is true - but, the other side of the equation is that your game plan has to be tailored a bit to the players you have available. E.g. it would be pretty dumb to come up with a gameplan that doesn't suit DMac (or maybe Beaden).
Does make you wonder about halfback selections, because there's quite a lot of different strengths and weaknesses available.
I agree with tailoring the gameplan to some key players - and likewise avoiding a gameplan that you don't have the cattle to implement effectively: the 1995 'mehrts, get it to jonah' plan would not have been quite as effective without Jonah.
Halfbacks though, I am in the camp of you pick those that can clear rucks fastest and most accurately almost regardless of game plan - the exception would be a totally defensive 10 man rugby kick all day mindset, and I can't see us going down that path. -
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.I guess the other side is, in NZ, we probably have to give thought to "will this guy fuck off if we don't pick him?". A guy like ALB can probably not afford to stay in NZ and not be an AB, so will just go elsewhere for more coin. I often wonder if the selection of some guys is built around that.
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Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.I guess the other side is, in NZ, we probably have to give thought to "will this guy fuck off if we don't pick him?". A guy like ALB can probably not afford to stay in NZ and not be an AB, so will just go elsewhere for more coin. I often wonder if the selection of some guys is built around that.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
no. you are completely missed the "if" part of the post to create a "gotcha"
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
no. you are completely missed the "if" part of the post to create a "gotcha"
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
no. you are completely missed the "if" part of the post to create a "gotcha"
Nah I’m not, I’m not in it for that and couldn’t care about ‘gotchas’. Just trying to understand what you mean by like for like with AJ Lam to JB.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select.
This is true - but, the other side of the equation is that your game plan has to be tailored a bit to the players you have available. E.g. it would be pretty dumb to come up with a gameplan that doesn't suit DMac (or maybe Beaden).
Does make you wonder about halfback selections, because there's quite a lot of different strengths and weaknesses available.
I agree with tailoring the gameplan to some key players - and likewise avoiding a gameplan that you don't have the cattle to implement effectively: the 1995 'mehrts, get it to jonah' plan would not have been quite as effective without Jonah.
Halfbacks though, I am in the camp of you pick those that can clear rucks fastest and most accurately almost regardless of game plan - the exception would be a totally defensive 10 man rugby kick all day mindset, and I can't see us going down that path.@reprobate There's a lot to be said for halfbacks who can snipe and run effectively - that threat holds the defence a bit.
Your halfback needs to be able to box kick effectively.
I'm not a fan of midget halfbacks who can be run over close to the line.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
no. you are completely missed the "if" part of the post to create a "gotcha"
Nah I’m not, I’m not in it for that and couldn’t care about ‘gotchas’. Just trying to understand what you mean by like for like with AJ Lam to JB.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
no. you are completely missed the "if" part of the post to create a "gotcha"
Nah I’m not, I’m not in it for that and couldn’t care about ‘gotchas’. Just trying to understand what you mean by like for like with AJ Lam to JB.
this is my post:
"sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select"
It's not even about AJ Lam, he's purely the example because people were debating him at the time. I don't know nearly enough about him as a player to advocate for him one way or the other. What i am advocating is a system.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
no. you are completely missed the "if" part of the post to create a "gotcha"
Nah I’m not, I’m not in it for that and couldn’t care about ‘gotchas’. Just trying to understand what you mean by like for like with AJ Lam to JB.
this is my post:
"sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select"
It's not even about AJ Lam, he's purely the example because people were debating him at the time. I don't know nearly enough about him as a player to advocate for him one way or the other. What i am advocating is a system.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Agreed completely. My comment is dictated on the game plan being built to suit the top 23, and then picking the squad as like-for-like replacements, rather than "the next best player" which means if option 1 is out, you need to tweak how you play as well as swap guys in and out.
Thus my comment on AJ Lam is as the JB replacement.So are you saying, if Jordie went down and you want to keep the same game plan you would pick AJ Lam because he is, in your opinion, a like for like replacement?
no. you are completely missed the "if" part of the post to create a "gotcha"
Nah I’m not, I’m not in it for that and couldn’t care about ‘gotchas’. Just trying to understand what you mean by like for like with AJ Lam to JB.
this is my post:
"sort of adding to my point above, if the AB game style is dependent on a big munter to run straight from 12, who is the 2nd best player in NZ to do that? If it is AJ Lam, then pick him. Is he a better player than, say, ALB? no, but is he the best fit for the game style the coaches want? if the answer is yes, then that's how you select"
It's not even about AJ Lam, he's purely the example because people were debating him at the time. I don't know nearly enough about him as a player to advocate for him one way or the other. What i am advocating is a system.
I’m with you now. At first I thought it was a AJ Lam to Jordie Barrett comparison and I was thinking what has this conversation come to.
Working and going on the fern isn’t recommended, you can miss the minor details that make it all make sense haha. Cheers mate.
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In a list of guys that play 12 like Barrett, Lam is right up there.
Probably:
Lam
Proctor
PoihipiWho am I missing?
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Lam is barely 4th or 5th choice in any position in my view. I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too. I do hope they pick the two best players in every position and not go down the versatile 4th or 5th choice route.
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too
ha ha ha ha. This thread is going crazy now.
69 tests, 36 tries, he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Billy P has his strengths, but he's a rookie at Test level.
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too
ha ha ha ha. This thread is going crazy now.
69 tests, 36 tries, he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Billy P has his strengths, but he's a rookie at Test level.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too
ha ha ha ha. This thread is going crazy now.
69 tests, 36 tries, he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Billy P has his strengths, but he's a rookie at Test level.
Of all the posts, this is the one that's crazy? It's not like Rieko has set the world alight at centre and he's not exactly having a standout season. Be honest, he's only the incumbent because it's been ridiculously slim pickings - he's not even close to being a pick in any world XV I'd say.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too
ha ha ha ha. This thread is going crazy now.
69 tests, 36 tries, he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Billy P has his strengths, but he's a rookie at Test level.
Of all the posts, this is the one that's crazy? It's not like Rieko has set the world alight at centre and he's not exactly having a standout season. Be honest, he's only the incumbent because it's been ridiculously slim pickings - he's not even close to being a pick in any world XV I'd say.
@Bones is that the standard?
He's probably not world XV, but he's not far below it. People over-react to him, but he's playing well - and has for a while. He was excellent at the RWC, on the biggest stage, and shut down some much vaunted centre combos.
This is a bit like saying ma'a hasn't played well in Super, so we should drop him from the ABs.
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@Bones is that the standard?
He's probably not world XV, but he's not far below it. People over-react to him, but he's playing well - and has for a while. He was excellent at the RWC, on the biggest stage, and shut down some much vaunted centre combos.
This is a bit like saying ma'a hasn't played well in Super, so we should drop him from the ABs.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Bones is that the standard?
He's probably not world XV, but he's not far below it. People over-react to him, but he's playing well - and has for a while. He was excellent at the RWC, on the biggest stage, and shut down some much vaunted centre combos.
This is a bit like saying ma'a hasn't played well in Super, so we should drop him from the ABs.
Of course that's the standard, why wouldn't you want someone who's considered one of the best in the world?
I don't even know how to address the second paragraph, apart from to say that's as ridiculous as pretending Cane is akin to McCaw.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too
ha ha ha ha. This thread is going crazy now.
69 tests, 36 tries, he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Billy P has his strengths, but he's a rookie at Test level.
Of all the posts, this is the one that's crazy? It's not like Rieko has set the world alight at centre and he's not exactly having a standout season. Be honest, he's only the incumbent because it's been ridiculously slim pickings - he's not even close to being a pick in any world XV I'd say.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too
ha ha ha ha. This thread is going crazy now.
69 tests, 36 tries, he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Billy P has his strengths, but he's a rookie at Test level.
Of all the posts, this is the one that's crazy? It's not like Rieko has set the world alight at centre and he's not exactly having a standout season. Be honest, he's only the incumbent because it's been ridiculously slim pickings - he's not even close to being a pick in any world XV I'd say.
With Rieko - Super form doesn't = test form it seems (like a long line of Blues; Kaino, Rokocoko etc)
Rieko is having a better Super Rugby season this year than last year (despite two nasty head knocks) and he had a terrific test season last year (people easily forget he threw two try assist passes in our QF win over Ireland). It's also worth noting Rieko has played well in the two playoff games this year.
There are certainly aspects to Proctor's game that look better than Rieko's (he can kick, he has better hands etc) but there are question marks as to whether he can transfer it to test level.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Bones is that the standard?
He's probably not world XV, but he's not far below it. People over-react to him, but he's playing well - and has for a while. He was excellent at the RWC, on the biggest stage, and shut down some much vaunted centre combos.
This is a bit like saying ma'a hasn't played well in Super, so we should drop him from the ABs.
Of course that's the standard, why wouldn't you want someone who's considered one of the best in the world?
I don't even know how to address the second paragraph, apart from to say that's as ridiculous as pretending Cane is akin to McCaw.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have Billy P over Rieko at the moment too
ha ha ha ha. This thread is going crazy now.
69 tests, 36 tries, he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Billy P has his strengths, but he's a rookie at Test level.
Of all the posts, this is the one that's crazy? It's not like Rieko has set the world alight at centre and he's not exactly having a standout season. Be honest, he's only the incumbent because it's been ridiculously slim pickings - he's not even close to being a pick in any world XV I'd say.
With Rieko - Super form doesn't = test form it seems (like a long line of Blues; Kaino, Rokocoko etc)
Rieko is having a better Super Rugby season this year than last year (despite two nasty head knocks) and he had a terrific test season last year (people easily forget he threw two try assist passes in our QF win over Ireland). It's also worth noting Rieko has played well in the two playoff games this year.
There are certainly aspects to Proctor's game that look better than Rieko's (he can kick, he has better hands etc) but there are question marks as to whether he can transfer it to test level.
