All Blacks 2024
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
even Stevenson
given our fullback options i am astounded how quickly SS has just been forgotten about. Definitely not his best year, and i wouldn't have selected him. But you look at the guys we are picking now, can you really say with a straight face they are more complete than him? Definite defensive issues, but you can say exactly the same about all our 15s (you could have last year as well to be honest).
Yeah and what seems even more forgotten is the combo he's formed with DMac.
Forget a Love/Jordan experiment - DMac/Stevenson is actually proven at one level at least.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
even Stevenson
given our fullback options i am astounded how quickly SS has just been forgotten about. Definitely not his best year, and i wouldn't have selected him. But you look at the guys we are picking now, can you really say with a straight face they are more complete than him? Definite defensive issues, but you can say exactly the same about all our 15s (you could have last year as well to be honest).
Yeah and what seems even more forgotten is the combo he's formed with DMac.
Forget a Love/Jordan experiment - DMac/Stevenson is actually proven at one level at least.
Stevenson is not All Black standard, he's the type of player who would get a few journeyman caps for Ireland or Wales, like McNicholl or Willis Halaholo. Lol.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
even Stevenson
given our fullback options i am astounded how quickly SS has just been forgotten about. Definitely not his best year, and i wouldn't have selected him. But you look at the guys we are picking now, can you really say with a straight face they are more complete than him? Definite defensive issues, but you can say exactly the same about all our 15s (you could have last year as well to be honest).
Yeah and what seems even more forgotten is the combo he's formed with DMac.
Forget a Love/Jordan experiment - DMac/Stevenson is actually proven at one level at least.
Stevenson is not All Black standard, he's the type of player who would get a few journeyman caps for Ireland or Wales, like McNicholl or Willis Halaholo. Lol.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
even Stevenson
given our fullback options i am astounded how quickly SS has just been forgotten about. Definitely not his best year, and i wouldn't have selected him. But you look at the guys we are picking now, can you really say with a straight face they are more complete than him? Definite defensive issues, but you can say exactly the same about all our 15s (you could have last year as well to be honest).
Yeah and what seems even more forgotten is the combo he's formed with DMac.
Forget a Love/Jordan experiment - DMac/Stevenson is actually proven at one level at least.
Stevenson is not All Black level, he's the type of player who would get a few journeyman caps for Ireland or Wales, like McNicholl or Willis Halaholo. Lol.
Lol lol
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
even Stevenson
given our fullback options i am astounded how quickly SS has just been forgotten about. Definitely not his best year, and i wouldn't have selected him. But you look at the guys we are picking now, can you really say with a straight face they are more complete than him? Definite defensive issues, but you can say exactly the same about all our 15s (you could have last year as well to be honest).
Yeah and what seems even more forgotten is the combo he's formed with DMac.
Forget a Love/Jordan experiment - DMac/Stevenson is actually proven at one level at least.
Stevenson is not All Black level, he's the type of player who would get a few journeyman caps for Ireland or Wales, like McNicholl or Willis Halaholo. Lol.
Lol lol
@Bones i actually quite rated Willis though - underrated player and key part of the Hurricanes success in 2016.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into
Indeed... but even worse - I've seen popping up on the Fern recently - "Player-A played South-Africa x times and the team won y% of those". WTF? If you're resorting to THAT metric, you've lost the argument. Go home, pick a new sport.
@Kruse said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into
Indeed... but even worse - I've seen popping up on the Fern recently - "Player-A played South-Africa x times and the team won y% of those". WTF? If you're resorting to THAT metric, you've lost the argument. Go home, pick a new sport.
And you may need to pick a new forum if you don’t think using an obscure stat backed up by some loosely related commentary to justify why a player from [insert the Super or NPC team of choice] is a worthwhile way to waste time between test matches.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as
NZlate Hansen/Foster did -
Defensively Jordie is our best fullback, followed by Beauden, and then a lot of daylight to Perofeta, Love and Jordan. SS is even worse which is why he hasn't been able to crack the team.
That's why the last coaching group and this one have persisted with Beauden now his brother has moved to 12. I really don't get the hate for him at the back, defensively sound, a good organiser, and still has the pace to exploit opportunities that present themselves which he has been superb at doing his entire career. His days at 10 are behind him but he's a valuable player for us in the 15 jumper.
At the Blues Beauden Barrett isn't close to Perofeta when it comes to defense.
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Defensively Jordie is our best fullback, followed by Beauden, and then a lot of daylight to Perofeta, Love and Jordan. SS is even worse which is why he hasn't been able to crack the team.
That's why the last coaching group and this one have persisted with Beauden now his brother has moved to 12. I really don't get the hate for him at the back, defensively sound, a good organiser, and still has the pace to exploit opportunities that present themselves which he has been superb at doing his entire career. His days at 10 are behind him but he's a valuable player for us in the 15 jumper.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
Defensively Jordie is our best fullback, followed by Beauden, and then a lot of daylight to Perofeta, Love and Jordan. SS is even worse which is why he hasn't been able to crack the team.
That's why the last coaching group and this one have persisted with Beauden now his brother has moved to 12. I really don't get the hate for him at the back, defensively sound, a good organiser, and still has the pace to exploit opportunities that present themselves which he has been superb at doing his entire career. His days at 10 are behind him but he's a valuable player for us in the 15 jumper.
Love is probably the best NZ fullback under the high balls.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
Define "NZ" in this context?
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
Define "NZ" in this context?
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
Define "NZ" in this context?
The NZers who selected him
The NZers who supported that selection -
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
Define "NZ" in this context?
The NZers who selected him
The NZers who supported that selection@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
Define "NZ" in this context?
The NZers who selected him
The NZers who supported that selectionSo a widely derided subset of the population, and a few Cantabs.
But I repeat myself.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
Define "NZ" in this context?
The NZers who selected him
The NZers who supported that selectionSo a widely derided subset of the population, and a few Cantabs.
But I repeat myself.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet I'd feel more comfortable with him at fullback than Jordan and the whole point of him being there is for his utility "value".
Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?
do you think scoring a try makes him a good fullback?
I just don't think it's relevant. George Bridge scored the most tries in Super one year and his highlights reel was running in with no defenders in sight. It's a terrible metric, but one that lazy journalists and northern hemisphere have always leaned into. Now creating tries is different ... Will Jordan got plaudits last week, but the pass from TJP was insanely good - incredibly hard to defend and put his man in space. THat was the magic.
NH never rated Bridge as high as NZ did
Define "NZ" in this context?
The NZers who selected him
The NZers who supported that selectionSo a widely derided subset of the population, and a few Cantabs.
So the very best of the best then…
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Read my earlier post, literally 2 fucking posts above yours. Im saying Havili shouldn't even be in the squad.
I merely asked the question whether Havili scored a try on debut in SA from fullback.
I agree with the first part.
That's why I was confused about your question 'Didnt Havili score against SA on debut at Fullback?'. It's often a precursor to 'hurr durr try score = awesome pick 'em'.
/shrugs.
My stance on DH has been set out here. I thought he was great at 12 against lower tier teams, but went missing against good sides. His performances were a key reason for people (including me) thinking JB woudl be a better, more physical 12. JB has shown it at times, but struggled to physically impose himself at times ... which for a bloke with his frame is kind of weird.
The irony is that while David Havili didn't score a try against the Boks, he did set up the winning try with a brilliant fend, some great footwork and a nice flick pass... All the stuff that IS important.
Easy to forget that Havili was one of the form outside backs in NZ for a few years before he was effectively forced to move to the midfield. If he was in the same sort of form now as then and playing his rugby at 15, he'd be a great option at the back.
And he did come back from a very serious illness so fair play to him on that count.
Always liked him as a player, but he is another one of our recent backs who is a yard too slow and/or not quite physical enough.
Your ALB's, your George Bridges, your Havilis of the world.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Always liked him as a player, but he is another one of our recent backs who is a yard too slow and/or not quite physical enough.
Your ALB's, your George Bridges, your Havilis of the world.
Wow. I can’t believe I just read ALB being used as an example alongside Havili and Bridge. Put some respect on ALB’s name. Havili wouldn’t even be in this squad if there was a different head coach. On Bridge, I don’t even need to go there.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Always liked him as a player, but he is another one of our recent backs who is a yard too slow and/or not quite physical enough.
Your ALB's, your George Bridges, your Havilis of the world.
Wow. I can’t believe I just read ALB being used as an example alongside Havili and Bridge. Put some respect on ALB’s name. Havili wouldn’t even be in this squad if there was a different head coach. On Bridge, I don’t even need to go there.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Always liked him as a player, but he is another one of our recent backs who is a yard too slow and/or not quite physical enough.
Your ALB's, your George Bridges, your Havilis of the world.
Wow. I can’t believe I just read ALB being used as an example alongside Havili and Bridge. Put some respect on ALB’s name. Havili wouldn’t even be in this squad if there was a different head coach. On Bridge, I don’t even need to go there.
I am not a fan of DH, but Foster picked him too. Foster is a different head coach isn't he?
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Always liked him as a player, but he is another one of our recent backs who is a yard too slow and/or not quite physical enough.
Your ALB's, your George Bridges, your Havilis of the world.
Wow. I can’t believe I just read ALB being used as an example alongside Havili and Bridge. Put some respect on ALB’s name. Havili wouldn’t even be in this squad if there was a different head coach. On Bridge, I don’t even need to go there.
I am not a fan of DH, but Foster picked him too. Foster is a different head coach isn't he?
@Crazy-Horse and he was first picked by Hansen. But who’s counting coaches
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@Crazy-Horse and he was first picked by Hansen. But who’s counting coaches
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2024:
@Crazy-Horse and he was first picked by Hansen. But who’s counting coaches
One coach made a mistake. Another selected him because he's experienced at Test level and yet another cause he knows him.
Jokes aside I think Havili's career has been mismanaged by the Crusaders - clearly good enough to start at SR level but moved from what should've been his best position to accommodate the players around him.
His talent doesn't correlate with the position and style the ABs have asked of him. It's their persistence which is baffling to me.
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Stevenson has only himself to blame for lack of ABs opportunities. If you don’t even bother to pretend to defend / make tackles then it’s all your fault. It’s not talent with him, it’s mindset. He’s a good attacker but the opportunities are far more limited at international rugby, defence is a lot more important
@Yeahtheboys said in All Blacks 2024:
Stevenson has only himself to blame for lack of ABs opportunities. If you don’t even bother to pretend to defend / make tackles then it’s all your fault. It’s not talent with him, it’s mindset. He’s a good attacker but the opportunities are far more limited at international rugby, defence is a lot more important
Agreed. One only needs to watch footage of him juxtaposed with Furbank. Chalk and cheese.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Always liked him as a player, but he is another one of our recent backs who is a yard too slow and/or not quite physical enough.
Your ALB's, your George Bridges, your Havilis of the world.
Wow. I can’t believe I just read ALB being used as an example alongside Havili and Bridge. Put some respect on ALB’s name. Havili wouldn’t even be in this squad if there was a different head coach. On Bridge, I don’t even need to go there.
I am not a fan of DH, but Foster picked him too. Foster is a different head coach isn't he?
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Always liked him as a player, but he is another one of our recent backs who is a yard too slow and/or not quite physical enough.
Your ALB's, your George Bridges, your Havilis of the world.
Wow. I can’t believe I just read ALB being used as an example alongside Havili and Bridge. Put some respect on ALB’s name. Havili wouldn’t even be in this squad if there was a different head coach. On Bridge, I don’t even need to go there.
I am not a fan of DH, but Foster picked him too. Foster is a different head coach isn't he?
I guess you can just brush over the part where I said ‘THIS’ squad. Lol. Hes been terrible all season for the Crusaders is way out of form, doesn’t deserve to be in the squad but is because he’s played for Razor at the crusaders. Hence the ‘This’ squad. But carry on…
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@Crazy-Horse and he was first picked by Hansen. But who’s counting coaches
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@ACT-Crusader I never mentioned anything about the past did I? I simply mentioned ‘this’ squad. Good to see there are still a few Havili apologists out there though
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@ACT-Crusader I never mentioned anything about the past did I? I simply mentioned ‘this’ squad. Good to see there are still a few Havili apologists out there though
Oooh I can play this game too.
I never responded to you just @Crazy-Horse because he mentioned Foster.
But now that I am replying to your comment, the whole premise of your argument was that another coach wouldn’t select him in this squad, which is just an opinion suggesting he is only there as a ‘crusader pick’ or because of favouritism or something along those lines. Not sure there is any basis in that opinion but all good it’s yours.
Also I would debate the use of apologist because that suggests the defending is on a controversial decision, whereas given his selection by the past two coaches it wouldn’t be seen as that controversial by some. Also very few that were in the RWC squad aren’t in this squad. But again that’s open to debate.
