All Blacks 2024
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
I guess I just find it hard to believe that when an All Black is released to NPC to get some game time, that the NPC coach can override the wishes of the national coach and play them out of position, making the entire exercise pointless and potentially hindering the national team. (devils advocate, you can argue here that actually Narawa is so out of the ABs picture that Robertson let the Steamer coach know he can play him wherever he chooses, although I highly doubt that is the situation).
I don't think NPC coaches give a flying fuck what the All Blacks coach wants - they're too busy trying to make their own squad win.
I don't think they give a flying fuck. I think they're "asked politely" from the higher ups to play their current All Blacks (the rare times they're available) in a certain position every now and then.
@kpkanz They might be asked, but there's no requirement for NPC coaches to accede - they're trying to ensure they're successful and have a job.
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@kpkanz They might be asked, but there's no requirement for NPC coaches to accede - they're trying to ensure they're successful and have a job.
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@kpkanz They might be asked, but there's no requirement for NPC coaches to accede - they're trying to ensure they're successful and have a job.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz They might be asked, but there's no requirement for NPC coaches to accede - they're trying to ensure they're successful and have a job.
This is from the job description of the expectations for an NPC coach/assistant coach job.
1st and 3rd points.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz They might be asked, but there's no requirement for NPC coaches to accede - they're trying to ensure they're successful and have a job.
This is from the job description of the expectations for an NPC coach/assistant coach job.
1st and 3rd points.
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
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@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
The ABs atm and their selections are doing my head in. It's a large case of try the same shit with the same players and expect different results. I agree with @darylmitchell, we need to stop giving players that have had plenty of chances to prove themselves time in the Black jersey. ALB and Ioane aren't cutting it for me in the centres, we need to give Proctor a run there. Bring Numia in for Ofa, he dismantled Canterbury's scrum yesterday and once again showed why he should be an AB after being the form prop in Super. Guys like Sititi, Lakai etc aswell are players that will propel the ABs and allow us to play the expansive game that many of us desire.
A big issue atm is when we've got Blackadder on the park with Cane/Papali'i we have F all go forward on attack and this is severely inhibiting our ability to get to the edges and release our attacking weapons.
I'd love to see the below 23 get a run on the end of year tour. I'm done with the 'hard hitting 7', we need someone that has the ability to be effective on both sides of the ball. Oh the irony.
- Wiliams
- Taylor
- Lomax
- S Barrett
- Darry
- Blackadder
- Lakai
- Savea
- Roigard
- McKenzie
- Clarke
- J Barrett
- Proctor
- Jordan
- Love
- Aumua
- Numia
- Newell
- Va'ai
- Sititi
- Ratima
- B Barrett
- Ioane
I agree with the premise. We have gone fairly stale.
We got an instant uptick when EDG and Lomax were thrown in, along with Fletch and Tamaiti when Fosters back was to the wall.
We similarly need to inject some effervescence into the backs now too. Some youthful enthusiasm.
Be it Ratima, Proctor, Love or otherwise.
Rassie is throwing Sasha and Fassi in at the deep end among others.
So not only are we losing in the here and now, we are also behind in the development stakes.
We have become shrinking violets at the selection table.
And now Razor is in the same pickle that Foster was in. He has lost a couple of games early doors and it ups the ante in every subsequent test. It becomes self preservation instead of innovation.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Rassie is throwing Sasha and Fassi in at the deep end among others.
The difference is Rassie has the momentum to do this. Much harder to do when the next game's always make-or-break.
Honestly, if Robertson loses next week or not, I wouldn't have a problem with big changes and trying something different - even if they don't all come off
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
Disagree. The language, if deliberately chosen (and there's no reason to suggest it isn't), frames it as a consideration, not an obligation. Hence there's autonomy for the coaches.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones Even more ironic that Narawa has been playing center the entirety of the NPC since being out of All Blacks camp (I'd say EXTREMELY likely at the request of Razor).
Would be hilarious if he usurps Rieko as starting center.
I think Narawa can be a future great All Black, reminds me a lot of Sivivatu, very high spatial awareness and game IQ. Game looks slow motion for him.
Just watched BOP vs Ta$man highlights there.
Narawa had some lovely touches at centre. Scored one from 50 meters, set up another from 60 meters, and set up another that was chalked off incorrectly with a lovely one handed offload.
Admittedly not test level, but he looked dangerous. He didnt look like a winger at centre.
He looked like a centre.
At NPC level ffs.
It's club 'plus' right now. Needs serious attention - NZR should have alarm bells going off big time in HQ. Our structures need a proper refresh. You're not going to get that with all external board members necessarily - honestly, the urgency should be off the charts right now.
Revenue and success follows a nosedive in quality
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bones Even more ironic that Narawa has been playing center the entirety of the NPC since being out of All Blacks camp (I'd say EXTREMELY likely at the request of Razor).
Would be hilarious if he usurps Rieko as starting center.
I think Narawa can be a future great All Black, reminds me a lot of Sivivatu, very high spatial awareness and game IQ. Game looks slow motion for him.
Just watched BOP vs Ta$man highlights there.
Narawa had some lovely touches at centre. Scored one from 50 meters, set up another from 60 meters, and set up another that was chalked off incorrectly with a lovely one handed offload.
Admittedly not test level, but he looked dangerous. He didnt look like a winger at centre.
He looked like a centre.
At NPC level ffs.
It's club 'plus' right now. Needs serious attention - NZR should have alarm bells going off big time in HQ. Our structures need a proper refresh. You're not going to get that with all external board members necessarily - honestly, the urgency should be off the charts right now.
Revenue and success follows a nosedive in quality
Been banging that drum for some time. A lot of people have the belief all's well in NZ rugby, we have world-class cattle to burn and all that's needed is a successful AB coach delivering results and we'll get some sort of virtuous circle.
Well, it isn't a circle it's a pyramid and the foundations need looking at.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
The ABs atm and their selections are doing my head in. It's a large case of try the same shit with the same players and expect different results. I agree with @darylmitchell, we need to stop giving players that have had plenty of chances to prove themselves time in the Black jersey. ALB and Ioane aren't cutting it for me in the centres, we need to give Proctor a run there.
I suppose you enjoy the ABs losing then?
Yeah, in my deluded state I keep thinking the reason we're not winning is some unproven bloke called Proctor who can unlock every defence, win every lineout, scrum, ruck and maul.
Yeah, because doing the same shit is really working for us aye. Maybe let's throw in guys that were actually showing form in Super rugby instead of the continued selection of players that don't get us results. If you want to keep getting mediocre results then by all means, keep picking the same players that simply don't perform on a consistent basis and at the level that we expect being AB fans.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
The ABs atm and their selections are doing my head in. It's a large case of try the same shit with the same players and expect different results. I agree with @darylmitchell, we need to stop giving players that have had plenty of chances to prove themselves time in the Black jersey. ALB and Ioane aren't cutting it for me in the centres, we need to give Proctor a run there.
I suppose you enjoy the ABs losing then?
Yeah, in my deluded state I keep thinking the reason we're not winning is some unproven bloke called Proctor who can unlock every defence, win every lineout, scrum, ruck and maul.
Yeah, because doing the same shit is really working for us aye. Maybe let's throw in guys that were actually showing form in Super rugby instead of the continued selection of players that don't get us results. If you want to keep getting mediocre results then by all means, keep picking the same players that simply don't perform on a consistent basis and at the level that we expect being AB fans.
Couple of points:
(1) ALB was arguably the form mid-fielder in SR
(2)Throwing new guys in on the basis of "what we're currently doing is shit" and hoping for a magic transformation may end up making things much worse.
We've thrown a new Head Coach in on SR form and after 6-7 Tests that hasn't transformed the team, has it?. We need to aim for steady improvement and give the new regime time to deliver that.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
The ABs atm and their selections are doing my head in. It's a large case of try the same shit with the same players and expect different results. I agree with @darylmitchell, we need to stop giving players that have had plenty of chances to prove themselves time in the Black jersey. ALB and Ioane aren't cutting it for me in the centres, we need to give Proctor a run there.
I suppose you enjoy the ABs losing then?
Yeah, in my deluded state I keep thinking the reason we're not winning is some unproven bloke called Proctor who can unlock every defence, win every lineout, scrum, ruck and maul.
Yeah, because doing the same shit is really working for us aye. Maybe let's throw in guys that were actually showing form in Super rugby instead of the continued selection of players that don't get us results. If you want to keep getting mediocre results then by all means, keep picking the same players that simply don't perform on a consistent basis and at the level that we expect being AB fans.
Couple of points:
(1) ALB was arguably the form mid-fielder in SR
(2)Throwing new guys in on the basis of "what we're currently doing is shit" and hoping for a magic transformation may end up making things much worse.
We've thrown a new Head Coach in on SR form and after 6-7 Tests that hasn't transformed the team, has it?. We need to aim for steady improvement and give the new regime time to deliver that.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
Disagree. The language, if deliberately chosen (and there's no reason to suggest it isn't), frames it as a consideration, not an obligation. Hence there's autonomy for the coaches.
Of course it only frames it as a consideration rather than what it actually is indirectly (an obligation). That's why it's called 'corporate speak'.
You think it won't come up in the contract renewal discussion that you didn't cooperate with your bosses (NZRU) biggest and sole cash cow (the All Blacks)??
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
Disagree. The language, if deliberately chosen (and there's no reason to suggest it isn't), frames it as a consideration, not an obligation. Hence there's autonomy for the coaches.
Of course it only frames it as a consideration rather than what it actually is indirectly (an obligation). That's why it's called 'corporate speak'.
You think it won't come up in the contract renewal discussion that you didn't cooperate with your bosses (NZRU) biggest and sole cash cow (the All Blacks)??
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
Disagree. The language, if deliberately chosen (and there's no reason to suggest it isn't), frames it as a consideration, not an obligation. Hence there's autonomy for the coaches.
Of course it only frames it as a consideration rather than what it actually is (an obligation). That's why it's called 'corporate speak'.
And you're free to ignore it @antipodean. But they rae free to not promote you or renew your contract.
To me, you'd need a bloody good reason to not do what you're told, despite the apparent autonomy.
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The ABs have not scored a point in the last 20 minutes of their last three games. They have not scored a try in the last 20 minutes of their last seven games. That's the thing to fix.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2024:
The ABs have not scored a point in the last 20 minutes of their last three games. They have not scored a try in the last 20 minutes of their last seven games. That's the thing to fix.
Does Razor know that stat?
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
Disagree. The language, if deliberately chosen (and there's no reason to suggest it isn't), frames it as a consideration, not an obligation. Hence there's autonomy for the coaches.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz So you're effectively proving my point. Consulting and discussing is not the same as being told where and when to play players.
And now imagine the decreasing level to which it applies as you move down from AB XV, Māori ABs, Super Rugby and NPC...
Read the first point of the job requirement again before you die on this hill.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. EOD
fair play to @kpkanz , a corporate reading of that is 'do what you get told'. I'm with him on that one - 'betterment of NZ rugby' gets assessed by the senior person I reckon.
Disagree. The language, if deliberately chosen (and there's no reason to suggest it isn't), frames it as a consideration, not an obligation. Hence there's autonomy for the coaches.
Well I'd hope the AB Coach doesn't dictate to an NPC Coach. But I'd also hope they worked together really closely on developing key players and skills.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
The reason Narawa is playing centre isn't because Robertson demanded it.
From my perspective I just argued it's EXTREMELY likely that's the case.
-never played there before either npc or super
-is one of the form super players but in the outside back position that is stacked with depth
-just released from AB camp and now playing in a position that we have very little depth inThis isn't even including the stipulation that it's very likely any current All Blacks playing NPC would be doing so under certain conditions from All Black coaches (ie playing time and position).
(devils advocate you can argue unbeknownst to us that Narawa is actually on the outer after his short ABs stint and not in contention for an ABs spot and is therefore free reign..which I highly doubt).
But sure I guess if you just say Razor didn't ask for this then it must be true.
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@Victor-Meldrew BUT HURRICANES
