All Blacks 2024
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew he had coached at international level. He got his arse handed to him in 2004 and had to adjust.
Robertson has had his arse handed to him. Now he needs to adjust. Let’s see if he does.
Henry lost 2 games out of 11 in '04 - a 5 point loss in Sydney and a 14 point loss at Ellis Park - so hardly had his arse handed to him. Robertson has to win all his games against Oz, Ireland, England and France to match that.
Now I don't know if Robertson's been unlucky, is adjusting or needs more support, but it's fair to say the jury's out on if he can hack it at Test level.
@Victor-Meldrew France, Ireland , Argentina and South Africa are comparatively stronger than they were in 2004.
Australia less so. -
I thought Razor did well to get the wins against England, in that he got the team prepared in a short space of time without making any real changes to tactics or personnel. They were tight wins that could have gone either way, but that really was a dream start for Razor.
I expected us to really build from that, and for Razor to make his mark on the team. However, we've just gone backwards at a rate of knots, and our ability to close out a game is just completely non existent now.
The whole "we were in a position to win but blew it" argument is awful and for losers. As I said above it's what other teams used to say about playing us to console themselves. I expect us to be in a position to win every match, all that matters is whether we actually win, and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, with the research that has been done into successful teams, that comes down to on field leadership. We don’t have decent options who are first choice players there and Scott Barrett doesn’t see to have it.
Of course Robertson chose the captain.
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I thought Razor did well to get the wins against England, in that he got the team prepared in a short space of time without making any real changes to tactics or personnel. They were tight wins that could have gone either way, but that really was a dream start for Razor.
I expected us to really build from that, and for Razor to make his mark on the team. However, we've just gone backwards at a rate of knots, and our ability to close out a game is just completely non existent now.
The whole "we were in a position to win but blew it" argument is awful and for losers. As I said above it's what other teams used to say about playing us to console themselves. I expect us to be in a position to win every match, all that matters is whether we actually win, and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
I thought Razor did well to get the wins against England, in that he got the team prepared in a short space of time without making any real changes to tactics or personnel. They were tight wins that could have gone either way, but that really was a dream start for Razor.
I expected us to really build from that, and for Razor to make his mark on the team. However, we've just gone backwards at a rate of knots, and our ability to close out a game is just completely non existent now.
The whole "we were in a position to win but blew it" argument is awful and for losers. As I said above it's what other teams used to say about playing us to console themselves. I expect us to be in a position to win every match, all that matters is whether we actually win, and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
Razor himself said after the England tests when questioned about the performance ,
Winning is the important part
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@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
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@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
Nonu thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
And he was right!
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Something I found interesting was Sotutu came off the bench for counties manukau and seemed to have a bit of intensity about him. I wonder if it was an ABs request as you don’t just have the form number 8 of super rugby on the bench in a provincial game.
Also now thinking Ardie to 7, which opens us up to Sititi or a real 8 and Blackadder or an abrasive big 6. A much better balance. Sititi can handle both the abrasive stuff and the speed around the park enabling the ABs to play both ways.
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Closing out a game at home with little expectation on you at home versus closing out a game away in enemy territory is different. I would argue we haven't closed out a game away since Ireland and we failed with better group against SA in the RWC.
I dont think we have gone as backwards as people think. We were not far off winning both those matches. Do we have the maturity and calmness to execute currently, it appears not and some of the senior talent is not providing that element either.
I do think we missed a great opportunity to blood some new talent and interestingly in that approach I would say the public would probably have been a lot more forgiving.
Its been a while since I believe we have truly owned the last 10 minutes before half and before full time.
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Closing out a game at home with little expectation on you at home versus closing out a game away in enemy territory is different. I would argue we haven't closed out a game away since Ireland and we failed with better group against SA in the RWC.
I dont think we have gone as backwards as people think. We were not far off winning both those matches. Do we have the maturity and calmness to execute currently, it appears not and some of the senior talent is not providing that element either.
I do think we missed a great opportunity to blood some new talent and interestingly in that approach I would say the public would probably have been a lot more forgiving.
Its been a while since I believe we have truly owned the last 10 minutes before half and before full time.
@bayimports said in All Blacks 2024:
Closing out a game at home with little expectation on you at home versus closing out a game away in enemy territory is different. I would argue we haven't closed out a game away since Ireland and we failed with better group against SA in the RWC.
I dont think we have gone as backwards as people think. We were not far off winning both those matches. Do we have the maturity and calmness to execute currently, it appears not and some of the senior talent is not providing that element either.
I do think we missed a great opportunity to blood some new talent and interestingly in that approach I would say the public would probably have been a lot more forgiving.
Its been a while since I believe we have truly owned the last 10 minutes before half and before full time.
I think the in-game strategy is good, the attacking structures are good, it's just Razor and his poor selections/management of his bench which is killing us in these games.
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@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
Nonu thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
And he was right!
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
Nonu thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
And he was right!
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Nonu was extremely raw, they used him on and off for a while before he matured and played consistently. He was bit of a loose canon. Probably explains why Conrad was the perfect partner for him.
Re Caleb, he grew up playing in the centres. I think he would be a devastating offensive centre but he’s not that agile on defense. I think he would struggle there. He may defend better at 12? I’m not sure that he as that endurance fitness either.
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Razor needs to look at the bigger picture, having to select the team around TJP, BB, Savea is also hurting us, it's comprising the balance of the whole team.
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Razor needs to look at the bigger picture, having to select the team around TJP, BB, Savea is also hurting us, it's comprising the balance of the whole team.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2024:
also Razor needs to look at the bigger picture, TJP, BB, Savea are not the future.
I think he had hopes of these senior players delivering in this area, where they have not.
Probably time for a few hard conversations at the very least
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@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
I did
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@george33 said in All Blacks 2024:
Cameron Roigard back for round 9 NPC, so he will definitely be on EOYT, shouldn't he?
He’s got one game to prove himself but he’ll definitely be on the EOYT. I think Counties should loan him to Wellington for the playoffs so he gets more game time.
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@george33 said in All Blacks 2024:
Cameron Roigard back for round 9 NPC, so he will definitely be on EOYT, shouldn't he?
He’s got one game to prove himself but he’ll definitely be on the EOYT. I think Counties should loan him to Wellington for the playoffs so he gets more game time.
@Canes4life Roigard, Samisoni, De Groot, Tuipoluto, if we aren't winning when they're back we got problems.
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@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
I did
@MN5 said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
I did
I first saw him play when he was 7 years old. I knew it then
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Something I found interesting was Sotutu came off the bench for counties manukau and seemed to have a bit of intensity about him. I wonder if it was an ABs request as you don’t just have the form number 8 of super rugby on the bench in a provincial game.
Also now thinking Ardie to 7, which opens us up to Sititi or a real 8 and Blackadder or an abrasive big 6. A much better balance. Sititi can handle both the abrasive stuff and the speed around the park enabling the ABs to play both ways.
@Boston-Boy said in All Blacks 2024:
Also now thinking Ardie to 7, which opens us up to Sititi or a real 8 and Blackadder or an abrasive big 6. A much better balance. Sititi can handle both the abrasive stuff and the speed around the park enabling the ABs to play both ways.
Exactly what I was thinking. Blackadder and Sititi good work rates and lineouts. Sititi got some good lineout takes last weekend. Savea would enjoy 7 I think.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
We all agree that if we lose against this Wallabies side Razor should be sacked?
The gloss has well and truly come off and all the hype around Robertson has turned out to be, well, hype.
What exactly were your expectations? What was the gloss? The hype? There was hope, but most were pragmatic enough to know that super isn’t test. There is evidence of change and I certainly wasn’t expecting him to waltz/ break dance in and beat the Boks at home. I gave last year’s RWC holders more credit than that. We really should have sneaked a win in the end but it wasn’t as bad as it could have been.
If Robertson goes down the Foster road and keeps doing the same things and expecting different results, then hopefully the NZRU will recognise their mistake and dispatch him, unlike Foster who got reappointed after one win in SA.
Mils for example said 4 or 5 losses for the year would be acceptable, given what was in front of a newbie coach. I had hoped for 3 but that was highly unlikely. The loss to Arg at home was truly poor but the season can be salvaged with a good EoY tour. Certainly cannot lose to Oz but even then sacking him would probably be knee jerk ( albeit that I would be freeing up space in my cellar!).
Edit: last bit re sacking in response to @Kirwan
Overall It's not the loses, it's the nature of the losses. I was expecting a fresher approach and a bit more inventiveness.
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Expected a bit more change (apart from the first 2-3 Tests) but most of the ones we've seen were mainly forced by injury. Take some chances - he's got the time. Build depth.
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Evidence of better, leadership, mental attitude and focus, discipline at key moments. That's got worse IMO.
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A more dynamic, varied attack. The chip kicks have gone but so has the backline penetration.
I'm not saying sack him but really think NZR need a review after the RC to see where things are going and what needs to be done.
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