All Blacks 2024
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knee jerk reaction for the 2025 season - fowards generally not too bad this year..... backs.... hard to pencil anyone in outside of 9
- Ethan de Groot / Williams ----- pen them in.
- Codie Taylor / Aumua ------ pen them in
- Tyrel Lomax / Fletcher Newell --------------- pen them in
- Scott Barrett --- Shadow of the player he was last two years - captaincy not suiting him?
- Patrick Tuipulotu - probably his best season in black - Pen him in
(LOCKING pleasingly we have good competition in the locking department so pick on form) - Wallace Sititi - PEN HIM IN probably 8 --- ridiculous we needed an injury to see him selected
- Sam Cane - warrior -- thanks for the service -- position available ffs please pick on form. (Lakai possibly leading contender)
- Ardie Savea - passed his use by date - needs to earn selection
- Cam Roigard -- I'd pen him in but Ratima and Hotham are not bad so would select on form.
- Beauden Barrett at least 3 years passed his used by date
10 Damian McKenzie -- a better option than BB but like BBs dinky kicks.. Dmac can go sideways headless chicken a bit too much - POSITION OPEN - we need to be brave and select on form - Caleb Clarke - his best season and only outside back Id keep on form
- Anton Lienert-Brown . Jordie / good D zero creativity - position open
- Rieko Ioane -- Good D zero creativity - position open
- Mark Tele’a / Reece -- see yas we need youth and speed
- Will Jordan -- try scoring machine but I am not convinced -- select position on form and ffs choose a specialist 15 please
Unfortunately we have some how got to the point that players retain the jersey far too easily - selections should be ruthlessly earned.
rant over -- see you all in 2025
@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks 2024:
knee jerk reaction for the 2025 season - fowards generally not too bad this year..... backs.... hard to pencil anyone in outside of 9
- Ethan de Groot / Williams ----- pen them in.
- Codie Taylor / Aumua ------ pen them in
- Tyrel Lomax / Fletcher Newell --------------- pen them in
- Scott Barrett --- Shadow of the player he was last two years - captaincy not suiting him?
- Patrick Tuipulotu - probably his best season in black - Pen him in
(LOCKING pleasingly we have good competition in the locking department so pick on form) - Wallace Sititi - PEN HIM IN probably 8 --- ridiculous we needed an injury to see him selected
- Sam Cane - warrior -- thanks for the service -- position available ffs please pick on form. (Lakai possibly leading contender)
- Ardie Savea - passed his use by date - needs to earn selection
- Cam Roigard -- I'd pen him in but Ratima and Hotham are not bad so would select on form.
- Beauden Barrett at least 3 years passed his used by date
10 Damian McKenzie -- a better option than BB but like BBs dinky kicks.. Dmac can go sideways headless chicken a bit too much - POSITION OPEN - we need to be brave and select on form - Caleb Clarke - his best season and only outside back Id keep on form
- Anton Lienert-Brown . Jordie / good D zero creativity - position open
- Rieko Ioane -- Good D zero creativity - position open
- Mark Tele’a / Reece -- see yas we need youth and speed
- Will Jordan -- try scoring machine but I am not convinced -- select position on form and ffs choose a specialist 15 please
Unfortunately we have some how got to the point that players retain the jersey far too easily - selections should be ruthlessly earned.
rant over -- see you all in 2025
Tosi over Newell every day of the week.
Tu'ungafasi has actually been the best prop on th eoy tour. Williams had some good runs but his workrate is the lowest of all the props and he was a mixed bag at the scrum.
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@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks 2024:
knee jerk reaction for the 2025 season - fowards generally not too bad this year..... backs.... hard to pencil anyone in outside of 9
- Ethan de Groot / Williams ----- pen them in.
- Codie Taylor / Aumua ------ pen them in
- Tyrel Lomax / Fletcher Newell --------------- pen them in
- Scott Barrett --- Shadow of the player he was last two years - captaincy not suiting him?
- Patrick Tuipulotu - probably his best season in black - Pen him in
(LOCKING pleasingly we have good competition in the locking department so pick on form) - Wallace Sititi - PEN HIM IN probably 8 --- ridiculous we needed an injury to see him selected
- Sam Cane - warrior -- thanks for the service -- position available ffs please pick on form. (Lakai possibly leading contender)
- Ardie Savea - passed his use by date - needs to earn selection
- Cam Roigard -- I'd pen him in but Ratima and Hotham are not bad so would select on form.
- Beauden Barrett at least 3 years passed his used by date
10 Damian McKenzie -- a better option than BB but like BBs dinky kicks.. Dmac can go sideways headless chicken a bit too much - POSITION OPEN - we need to be brave and select on form - Caleb Clarke - his best season and only outside back Id keep on form
- Anton Lienert-Brown . Jordie / good D zero creativity - position open
- Rieko Ioane -- Good D zero creativity - position open
- Mark Tele’a / Reece -- see yas we need youth and speed
- Will Jordan -- try scoring machine but I am not convinced -- select position on form and ffs choose a specialist 15 please
Unfortunately we have some how got to the point that players retain the jersey far too easily - selections should be ruthlessly earned.
rant over -- see you all in 2025
Tosi over Newell every day of the week.
Tu'ungafasi has actually been the best prop on th eoy tour. Williams had some good runs but his workrate is the lowest of all the props and he was a mixed bag at the scrum.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks 2024:
knee jerk reaction for the 2025 season - fowards generally not too bad this year..... backs.... hard to pencil anyone in outside of 9
- Ethan de Groot / Williams ----- pen them in.
- Codie Taylor / Aumua ------ pen them in
- Tyrel Lomax / Fletcher Newell --------------- pen them in
- Scott Barrett --- Shadow of the player he was last two years - captaincy not suiting him?
- Patrick Tuipulotu - probably his best season in black - Pen him in
(LOCKING pleasingly we have good competition in the locking department so pick on form) - Wallace Sititi - PEN HIM IN probably 8 --- ridiculous we needed an injury to see him selected
- Sam Cane - warrior -- thanks for the service -- position available ffs please pick on form. (Lakai possibly leading contender)
- Ardie Savea - passed his use by date - needs to earn selection
- Cam Roigard -- I'd pen him in but Ratima and Hotham are not bad so would select on form.
- Beauden Barrett at least 3 years passed his used by date
10 Damian McKenzie -- a better option than BB but like BBs dinky kicks.. Dmac can go sideways headless chicken a bit too much - POSITION OPEN - we need to be brave and select on form - Caleb Clarke - his best season and only outside back Id keep on form
- Anton Lienert-Brown . Jordie / good D zero creativity - position open
- Rieko Ioane -- Good D zero creativity - position open
- Mark Tele’a / Reece -- see yas we need youth and speed
- Will Jordan -- try scoring machine but I am not convinced -- select position on form and ffs choose a specialist 15 please
Unfortunately we have some how got to the point that players retain the jersey far too easily - selections should be ruthlessly earned.
rant over -- see you all in 2025
Tosi over Newell every day of the week.
Tu'ungafasi has actually been the best prop on th eoy tour. Williams had some good runs but his workrate is the lowest of all the props and he was a mixed bag at the scrum.
I've been critical of Ofa in the past, but yep, he's had a good tour. His scrummaging has been very good on this tour too.
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@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
I think what we’ve seen is what would happen if any of us had the chance to select and coach the ABs. We’ve got this idea in our head of a style of play and what we think will work, and then very quickly - how does the Mike Tyson quote go? - everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Under Razor the ABs are trying to play a skills-based game to out manoeuvre their opposition. The interesting thing is, we’ve actually discovered some dimensions to our power game (Sititi, Aumua, Paddy to an extent… Ardie for about 3 mins every game). So, what he needs to do, is quickly sort out how to diversify the approach so we don’t just rely on out-highlights reeling the opposition. Don’t forget, we’ve been there or there abouts with the best teams in the world this year. Is it good enough yet? No. Is there the potential to grow consistently into the best team in the world? In the basis of some of the young players coming through, I would say yes. But Razor’s got some hard/brave calls to make in 2025.
I'm not sure about potential. France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
They're winning games against us with young players coming through.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
I think what we’ve seen is what would happen if any of us had the chance to select and coach the ABs. We’ve got this idea in our head of a style of play and what we think will work, and then very quickly - how does the Mike Tyson quote go? - everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Under Razor the ABs are trying to play a skills-based game to out manoeuvre their opposition. The interesting thing is, we’ve actually discovered some dimensions to our power game (Sititi, Aumua, Paddy to an extent… Ardie for about 3 mins every game). So, what he needs to do, is quickly sort out how to diversify the approach so we don’t just rely on out-highlights reeling the opposition. Don’t forget, we’ve been there or there abouts with the best teams in the world this year. Is it good enough yet? No. Is there the potential to grow consistently into the best team in the world? In the basis of some of the young players coming through, I would say yes. But Razor’s got some hard/brave calls to make in 2025.
I'm not sure about potential. France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
They're winning games against us with young players coming through.
We have some real potential particularly in our forwards, but what we lack - and which we have lacked since 2016 - but which RSA and France have, is brains both on and off the field. I have said on another thread that, if Razor has half a brain, he will try to turn this team into an adapted 10-man rugby team that bludgeons their opposition, plays for set pieces, and attacks only off counterattacking chaos ball - that would be making the most of our actual rather than imagined talents. This bullshit about "our DNA" really grinds my gears because the actual DNA of the best players we have available would be much better suited to an entirely different game plan.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
Don't get the hate for Wilson myself, think he's not bad.
Screams company man who'll say what he's told to. Legend as a player, but seriously limited as a commentator or analyst. Struck me as very sycophantic.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
Don't get the hate for Wilson myself, think he's not bad.
Screams company man who'll say what he's told to. Legend as a player, but seriously limited as a commentator or analyst. Struck me as very sycophantic.
Not great on The Breakdown, but much better on commentary where he has to speak off the cuff and call it as he sees it. Made some really good comments about how we are using Rieko - i.e. completing wasting his talents. And in fairness to Goldie, he was relatively critical on The Breakdown today.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
I think what we’ve seen is what would happen if any of us had the chance to select and coach the ABs. We’ve got this idea in our head of a style of play and what we think will work, and then very quickly - how does the Mike Tyson quote go? - everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Under Razor the ABs are trying to play a skills-based game to out manoeuvre their opposition. The interesting thing is, we’ve actually discovered some dimensions to our power game (Sititi, Aumua, Paddy to an extent… Ardie for about 3 mins every game). So, what he needs to do, is quickly sort out how to diversify the approach so we don’t just rely on out-highlights reeling the opposition. Don’t forget, we’ve been there or there abouts with the best teams in the world this year. Is it good enough yet? No. Is there the potential to grow consistently into the best team in the world? In the basis of some of the young players coming through, I would say yes. But Razor’s got some hard/brave calls to make in 2025.
I'm not sure about potential. France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
They're winning games against us with young players coming through.
We have some real potential particularly in our forwards, but what we lack - and which we have lacked since 2016 - but which RSA and France have, is brains both on and off the field. I have said on another thread that, if Razor has half a brain, he will try to turn this team into an adapted 10-man rugby team that bludgeons their opposition, plays for set pieces, and attacks only off counterattacking chaos ball - that would be making the most of our actual rather than imagined talents. This bullshit about "our DNA" really grinds my gears because the actual DNA of the best players we have available would be much better suited to an entirely different game plan.
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
I think what we’ve seen is what would happen if any of us had the chance to select and coach the ABs. We’ve got this idea in our head of a style of play and what we think will work, and then very quickly - how does the Mike Tyson quote go? - everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Under Razor the ABs are trying to play a skills-based game to out manoeuvre their opposition. The interesting thing is, we’ve actually discovered some dimensions to our power game (Sititi, Aumua, Paddy to an extent… Ardie for about 3 mins every game). So, what he needs to do, is quickly sort out how to diversify the approach so we don’t just rely on out-highlights reeling the opposition. Don’t forget, we’ve been there or there abouts with the best teams in the world this year. Is it good enough yet? No. Is there the potential to grow consistently into the best team in the world? In the basis of some of the young players coming through, I would say yes. But Razor’s got some hard/brave calls to make in 2025.
I'm not sure about potential. France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
They're winning games against us with young players coming through.
We have some real potential particularly in our forwards, but what we lack - and which we have lacked since 2016 - but which RSA and France have, is brains both on and off the field. I have said on another thread that, if Razor has half a brain, he will try to turn this team into an adapted 10-man rugby team that bludgeons their opposition, plays for set pieces, and attacks only off counterattacking chaos ball - that would be making the most of our actual rather than imagined talents. This bullshit about "our DNA" really grinds my gears because the actual DNA of the best players we have available would be much better suited to an entirely different game plan.
The AB DNA chestnut is bullshit anyway. In the 70s we played 10 man rugby. In the 80s we had some great backs, but Grant Fox (predominantly kicking 10
) ran the cutter and our forwards were strong and tough. Sure, between 2012 to 2015 we were the masters of total rugby, but times change and so must we. That's the DNA of the ABs, toughness, smarts, ruthlessness, winning. Not the high risk, dated gameplan we are seeing right now -
I think I would summarize the season as A for the forwards and F for the backs. We have created genuine depth up front and are capable of matching or exceeding all the top sides in the world. Probably still need a genuine line out option at 6. The backs on the other hand are a shambles : no player depth created, no style of play, no gameplan, no chemistry. The only thing we have is experience and Razor seems to value that above everything. Such a contrast to the other top nations , we have seen their backs improve in front of our eyes and we have seen fantastic new talent being blooded.
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I think I would summarize the season as A for the forwards and F for the backs. We have created genuine depth up front and are capable of matching or exceeding all the top sides in the world. Probably still need a genuine line out option at 6. The backs on the other hand are a shambles : no player depth created, no style of play, no gameplan, no chemistry. The only thing we have is experience and Razor seems to value that above everything. Such a contrast to the other top nations , we have seen their backs improve in front of our eyes and we have seen fantastic new talent being blooded.
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A- for the forwards from me. Scott Barrett and Ardie Savea were a bit disappointing. Hoskins Sotutu wasn't selected. Sami T and Ethan Blackadder were injured, but the rest of the forwards did really well. Lots of players had their best season to date.
Defence: B. Disappointing against Argentina in Wellington but solid enough in every other game
Back line attack: D. Often rudderless and unthreatening. The weakest the AB backline has been in 30 years. A major rethink is needed.
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@DMX Yes, the forwards are the best they've been since 2015, but the backs the worst they've been for a long time.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2024:
@DMX Yes, the forwards are the best they've been since 2015, but the backs the worst they've been for a long time.
Maybe the forwards are the result of continuity in coaching? That forwards like Vaa'i and Williams have kicked on and Sititi has slotted in so well looks to be the result of a coach who's been thru some up and downs but is now comfortable in his role.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
I think I've been had. I'm already very bearish on next season if that's how he feels. Perhaps the SuperCoach should just select good players and coach, instead of fapping over guys that chose to leave?
Quote from the article.
“You cannot replace Test experience – that’s one thing I’ve learned. Hence why Sam Cane has been so valuable. That’s the consistency that South Africa have at the moment."
This is BS. No wonder he's been picking complete has beens all year.
Experience is not fungible/equal.
A lot of the old heads in this group have had a decade of being losers, breaking records for losing, and just in general being inferior. They have BAD experience.
No surprise our best players all year have been debutants who have taken it directly to teams that have been dominating us recently.
Or 2004 where we transformed the team in ONE EOYT by leaving behind Spencer/Marshall and a bunch of experienced MUST HAVE players.
And the next gen took over and dominated the world.
We are on the cusp of that here but apparently Razor is scared to pull the switch.
Don't forget our best player in Sititi this year may have only had 80 minutes of game time all year if it wasn't for that Blackadder injury.
Or seeing Aumua step up when he had no CHOICE after Taylors early injury, and he performed and became a monster this tour, after finally being given a full game instead of a BS garbage time 15 minutes at the end.
We have a bunch of toxic nepotism picks who have been losers for near a DECADE holding us up with our next generation just waiting in the stands until they get they their chance.
Beauden/Rieko/Jordie are immediate examples.
Scott Barret/Reece, possibly Ardie are more.
More than half the team currently literally aren't the best in NZ.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience is not fungible/equal.
Take your point, but experience is bloody important. I'm sure Sititi, Roigard, Ratima, Lakai etc, learnt a lot from Cane and TJP - as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury. Credit where credit's due that they were able to shine.
That said, Robertson sticking with the likes of Havili, BB & ALB while hardly playing Proctor, Plummer et al is unfathomable bollocks.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience is not fungible/equal.
Take your point, but experience is bloody important. I'm sure Sititi, Roigard, Ratima, Lakai etc, learnt a lot from Cane and TJP - as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury. Credit where credit's due that they were able to shine.
That said, Robertson sticking with the likes of Havili, BB & ALB while hardly playing Proctor, Plummer et al is unfathomable bollocks.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury
We don't really know that. Perhaps they would've learned more playing alongside better players that help them to excel?
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
I think I've been had. I'm already very bearish on next season if that's how he feels. Perhaps the SuperCoach should just select good players and coach, instead of fapping over guys that chose to leave?
Quote from the article.
“You cannot replace Test experience – that’s one thing I’ve learned. Hence why Sam Cane has been so valuable. That’s the consistency that South Africa have at the moment."
This is BS. No wonder he's been picking complete has beens all year.
Experience is not fungible/equal.
A lot of the old heads in this group have had a decade of being losers, breaking records for losing, and just in general being inferior. They have BAD experience.
No surprise our best players all year have been debutants who have taken it directly to teams that have been dominating us recently.
Or 2004 where we transformed the team in ONE EOYT by leaving behind Spencer/Marshall and a bunch of experienced MUST HAVE players.
And the next gen took over and dominated the world.
We are on the cusp of that here but apparently Razor is scared to pull the switch.
Don't forget our best player in Sititi this year may have only had 80 minutes of game time all year if it wasn't for that Blackadder injury.
Or seeing Aumua step up when he had no CHOICE after Taylors early injury, and he performed and became a monster this tour, after finally being given a full game instead of a BS garbage time 15 minutes at the end.
We have a bunch of toxic nepotism picks who have been losers for near a DECADE holding us up with our next generation just waiting in the stands until they get they their chance.
Beauden/Rieko/Jordie are immediate examples.
Scott Barret/Reece, possibly Ardie are more.
More than half the team currently literally aren't the best in NZ.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
I think I've been had. I'm already very bearish on next season if that's how he feels. Perhaps the SuperCoach should just select good players and coach, instead of fapping over guys that chose to leave?
Quote from the article.
“You cannot replace Test experience – that’s one thing I’ve learned. Hence why Sam Cane has been so valuable. That’s the consistency that South Africa have at the moment."
This is BS. No wonder he's been picking complete has beens all year.
Experience is not fungible/equal.
A lot of the old heads in this group have had a decade of being losers, breaking records for losing, and just in general being inferior. They have BAD experience.
No surprise our best players all year have been debutants who have taken it directly to teams that have been dominating us recently.
Or 2004 where we transformed the team in ONE EOYT by leaving behind Spencer/Marshall and a bunch of experienced MUST HAVE players.
And the next gen took over and dominated the world.
We are on the cusp of that here but apparently Razor is scared to pull the switch.
Don't forget our best player in Sititi this year may have only had 80 minutes of game time all year if it wasn't for that Blackadder injury.
Or seeing Aumua step up when he had no CHOICE after Taylors early injury, and he performed and became a monster this tour, after finally being given a full game instead of a BS garbage time 15 minutes at the end.
We have a bunch of toxic nepotism picks who have been losers for near a DECADE holding us up with our next generation just waiting in the stands until they get they their chance.
Beauden/Rieko/Jordie are immediate examples.
Scott Barret/Reece, possibly Ardie are more.
More than half the team currently literally aren't the best in NZ.
'You can't replace test experience'
As the new All Blacks motto goes, It's hard to get in to the ABs, and even harder to get dropped.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury
We don't really know that. Perhaps they would've learned more playing alongside better players that help them to excel?
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury
We don't really know that. Perhaps they would've learned more playing alongside better players that help them to excel?
Havili and Proctor looked a good bet.
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I am trying to work out what's gone so wrong with our backline.
These are my guesses.
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Aging players are kept in the squad when once upon a time two bad performances would have led to the selectors hitting the ejector seat button.
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Some of our backs ain't fast enough.
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Our backs ain't spending enough time together on the training paddock working on combinations, attacking angles and the timing of passes.
I'd welcome other suggestions.
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I am trying to work out what's gone so wrong with our backline.
These are my guesses.
-
Aging players are kept in the squad when once upon a time two bad performances would have led to the selectors hitting the ejector seat button.
-
Some of our backs ain't fast enough.
-
Our backs ain't spending enough time together on the training paddock working on combinations, attacking angles and the timing of passes.
I'd welcome other suggestions.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2024:
I am trying to work out what's gone so wrong with our backline.
These are my guesses.
-
Aging players are kept in the squad when once upon a time two bad performances would have led to the selectors hitting the ejector seat button.
-
Some of our backs ain't fast enough.
-
Our backs ain't speeding enough time together on the training paddock working on combinations, attacking angles and the timing of passes.
I'd welcome other suggestions.
- Some guys just aren’t as good as the selectors think they are
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2024:
I am trying to work out what's gone so wrong with our backline.
These are my guesses.
-
Aging players are kept in the squad when once upon a time two bad performances would have led to the selectors hitting the ejector seat button.
-
Some of our backs ain't fast enough.
-
Our backs ain't speeding enough time together on the training paddock working on combinations, attacking angles and the timing of passes.
I'd welcome other suggestions.
- Some guys just aren’t as good as the selectors think they are
-
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So Dmac is in the Dream World Team of the Year and the ABs get "Dinky Kicks " at pivot.....
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So Dmac is in the Dream World Team of the Year and the ABs get "Dinky Kicks " at pivot.....
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2024:
So Dmac is in the Dream World Team of the Year and the ABs get "Dinky Kicks " at pivot.....
And Lomax and Jordan are in that named team.
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Interestingly I was talking to a mate about Razor, and he has a mate (haha yeah I know, mate of mate) with significant first hand experience of Razor in a professional capacity. He doesn't rate his vaunted coaching ability or his man management skills. It's one person's opinion of course, but it feels quite plausible based on this season's events. He had the whole buffet that is NZs top rugby talent to fuse into a quality team, and we got what we got, a pupu platter of inconsistency. I believe we can do better
