All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan what if, they somehow manage to win the next 2 playing so ugly...learning to win ugly will surely lead to some 'prettier' wins down the road?
@Jet wants us to win by 75 every test. Whilst I do share the frustration, we're not even one year in. The very same people gave Foz 4 years.
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan what if, they somehow manage to win the next 2 playing so ugly...learning to win ugly will surely lead to some 'prettier' wins down the road?
@Jet wants us to win by 75 every test. Whilst I do share the frustration, we're not even one year in. The very same people gave Foz 4 years.
And conversely the very same people defending Razor gave Foz half a match.
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@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I'm sorry but that was an awful game by the officials. Gus basically coached them through rucks, tackles etc. He was so inconsitant it was beyond farcicle.
farce-icicle? A chilly farcical kick to the spine?
I like it.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I'm sorry but that was an awful game by the officials. Gus basically coached them through rucks, tackles etc. He was so inconsitant it was beyond farcicle.
farce-icicle? A chilly farcical kick to the spine?
I like it.Jesus, is that how it came out? Hands faster than my brain or some such.
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Also I have realised today that coaches don't do anything.
The way the ABs play depend on who is picked not who is coach. DMac is 10? Fast fast, lots of passing lots of phases. BB is 10? Kick everything always.Foster? Robertson? Doesn't matter. Today looked like 2022 all over again.
Also, coaches don't make subs. 7&8 were having poor games, so what do we do? Leave them on for 80 and not even try to do anything different.
You can point to the scoreboard and say it worked, if you want to ignore how much luck that took.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Also I have realised today that coaches don't do anything.
The way the ABs play depend on who is picked not who is coach. DMac is 10? Fast fast, lots of passing lots of phases. BB is 10? Kick everything always.Foster? Robertson? Doesn't matter. Today looked like 2022 all over again.
Also, coaches don't make subs. 7&8 were having poor games, so what do we do? Leave them on for 80 and not even try to do anything different.
You can point to the scoreboard and say it worked, if you want to ignore how much luck that took.
Credit to England's defence? They let in 3 tries and it should have been more if it weren't for our fuckups.
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@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Right on halftime Vaaii gets pinged for side entry at maul time. I didn't hear him get a warning to get out?
Doesn't need a warning. He joined wrong, thus penalty.
But compare to incident in second half when Angus kept calling "no" to Pom who was blatantly playing the ball when he shouldn't. He should have just penalised him. There is no requirement to warn.
@booboo said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Right on halftime Vaaii gets pinged for side entry at maul time. I didn't hear him get a warning to get out?
Doesn't need a warning. He joined wrong, thus penalty.
But compare to incident in second half when Angus kept calling "no" to Pom who was blatantly playing the ball when he shouldn't. He should have just penalised him. There is no requirement to warn.
This happened A LOT especially at ruck time where he warned England but PK'd us immediately.
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@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Right on halftime Vaaii gets pinged for side entry at maul time. I didn't hear him get a warning to get out?
Doesn't need a warning. He joined wrong, thus penalty.
But compare to incident in second half when Angus kept calling "no" to Pom who was blatantly playing the ball when he shouldn't. He should have just penalised him. There is no requirement to warn.
@booboo said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Right on halftime Vaaii gets pinged for side entry at maul time. I didn't hear him get a warning to get out?
Doesn't need a warning. He joined wrong, thus penalty.
But compare to incident in second half when Angus kept calling "no" to Pom who was blatantly playing the ball when he shouldn't. He should have just penalised him. There is no requirement to warn.
Today's game was brought to you by the letter I for inconsistency
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@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
The Reiko one was a good defensive play. I don't remember the one where he should have passed.
Nothing seemed to go in to his hands clean though, it's not happening for him this year.
By the time he gets the ball it always seems to be a crash, even if he wanted to there is no time to pass the ball outside
Reckon he is doing exactly what the coaches want from him, which is exactly that.
Personally think it's a waste, but there you go.
@booboo said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
The Reiko one was a good defensive play. I don't remember the one where he should have passed.
Nothing seemed to go in to his hands clean though, it's not happening for him this year.
By the time he gets the ball it always seems to be a crash, even if he wanted to there is no time to pass the ball outside
Reckon he is doing exactly what the coaches want from him, which is exactly that.
Personally think it's a waste, but there you go.
Yes. The point I was trying to make was that both JB and RI seemed to be employed as crashers. Who is there in midfield to distribute?
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Haven't read the thread (not sure I can be arsed today with the attacking/fluffing of individual players that match threads have descended into these days - will read back over the week) so here's my dump of thoughts I can remember.
I really thought it was going to be two losses from drop goals in two days for NZ test teams.
Thought we were the much better side in the first half and honestly thought we were getting the rough end of the calls. Annoyingly that's what most of my comments are about.
I was disappointed our captain didn't point out the English players were running decoys and that was why we were hitting them off the ball.
On replay looked like BB was tackled in the air by the Eng 6, something you'd expect the TMO would pickup. Especially if it went the other way.
What’s this “allow the access” call by refs? Players don’t need to move out of the way, they just can’t change their line to impede.
In that last 10 minutes Eng killed our ball multiple times and didn't get carded. It goes back down the other end and we get the same player carded twice. Ironically one of the cards was an actual straight up tackle without the ball with the England player not being a decoy. Then Gardner allowed himself to get bullied by his officials team into a card for a call he claimed wasn't foul play. Rugby's legislators seem intent on creating mismatches rather than contests these days - but you only need to read NH comments around the 20m reds to see that fans up there want that in the game.
I'm glad we've ditched playing behind the line so much. We looked better in that first half due to that.
I assume Vai'i was injured? How lucky did the coaches get with Sititi, back up number 8 becomes the 6 we need. Reminds me of Mils in 2003.
Itoje and Smith's tight riding high shorts are funny. It's like they want to play AFL.
Ah well, at least we got the win, played some decent rugby in parts, and it's helped ease my anger over the pathetic Kiwis last night.
Edit: Oh yeah forgot to say, that 20 odd minutes where they muddled up the audio and we got the ref loud and Nisbett quiet was great.
@Nepia said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Haven't read the thread (not sure I can be arsed today with the attacking/fluffing of individual players that match threads have descended into these days
Pot calling the kettle black there Nepia
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@Nepia said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Haven't read the thread (not sure I can be arsed today with the attacking/fluffing of individual players that match threads have descended into these days
Pot calling the kettle black there Nepia
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Nepia said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Haven't read the thread (not sure I can be arsed today with the attacking/fluffing of individual players that match threads have descended into these days
Pot calling the kettle black there Nepia
On match threads? Nope, not for ages. In general threads, yep, of course I'll call out shit players who only make one tackle in a crucial match or advocate for a player who was the best in Super and gets stupidly overlooked.
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Well have to say that was a fun watch. Mind you I was sitting in a pub in Wales, the beer tasting great, and the Welshmen all cheering for ABs too. Didn't see things as carefully as usual when watching tests, but thought in general team looked ok, with of course Sititi and Pat T, I thought outstanding. Although both players looked quite good, I was a little surprised at Ratima and Roigard both seemed a little hesitant at times. But happy with it all in general anyway,because of the W beside the game
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
That said, the coaching and the selection this year leaves a lot to be desired. For example, if Blackadder hadn't been injured Sititi might not have been saving our bacon, Tele'a looks far better at 14, Cane is treading water, BB isn't consistently good enough even for the 23 IMO, Jordie hasn't improved or even held form, and our captain seems to be one of the quietest on the field.
We cant play catch up rugby with Ireland.
Our strongest axis 8-9-10-12 at the moment is probably starting Sititi-Roigard-DMac-ALB. It wont happen though.ALB I am losing faith in. The NZ XV midfield looked snappier.
I wouldn't want to gloss over the mistakes our midfielders made today, but in all honesty you could probably put Jesus Christ our lord and saviour outside Beauden Barrett and he wouldn't achieve much of anything.
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@reprobate Yeah, Ratima was terrible and Barrett was static or looking to kick. With a flat alignment it's very hard for the midfield to do anything.
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Watched some more highlights.
Shit a brick it is impressive how brilliantly Wallace Sititi has taken to test Rugby.
Hoskins who ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Watched some more highlights.
Shit a brick it is impressive how brilliantly Wallace Sititi has taken to test Rugby.
Hoskins who ?
Sititi was playing 6.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Watched some more highlights.
Shit a brick it is impressive how brilliantly Wallace Sititi has taken to test Rugby.
Hoskins who ?
Sititi was playing 6.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MN5 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Watched some more highlights.
Shit a brick it is impressive how brilliantly Wallace Sititi has taken to test Rugby.
Hoskins who ?
Sititi was playing 6.
Yeah I know, thanks anyway
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Ratima for me was suprisingly poor.
B B was BB shit.
Scott Barrett actually did a ton work a lot of tackles and grunt work.
Vaai looked out muscled today.
Patty T was awesome of the bench, Telea much better from him today and Sititi is a brilliant selection by Razor he was Hugh again.
BB,Cane time to move on from these two.
For all you D Mac fan boys brilliant pressure conversion from the sideline.
A win at Twickers is a win only penalties and the intercept from Ratima kept England in the game.
This tight win away may grow this team with some changes.
A lot of people were saying we will not win any of the main 3 games, well we have won one.@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Sititi is a brilliant selection by Razor he was Hugh again.
That leg injury to Niggles which opened the door to Sititi was inspired.
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Watched some more highlights.
Shit a brick it is impressive how brilliantly Wallace Sititi has taken to test Rugby.
Hoskins who ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Watched some more highlights.
Shit a brick it is impressive how brilliantly Wallace Sititi has taken to test Rugby.
Hoskins who ?
Nah, play both of them once Hoskins is fit again next year.
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Sititi is a brilliant selection by Razor he was Hugh again.
That leg injury to Niggles which opened the door to Sititi was inspired.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Sititi is a brilliant selection by Razor he was Hugh again.
That leg injury to Niggles which opened the door to Sititi was inspired.
If they'd selected Ioane/Sotutu, we might never have found out how good Sititi is.
Brilliant, brilliant coaching.
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@Chris-B I agree. It looks like the ambition to play dazzling, fast and beautiful rugby exceeds the individual abilities of most of the players. It speaks perhaps to a lack of clarity of communication, pragmatism and honesty at the coaching level. Something isn’t working internally, I suspect.
Aside from the messy execution of an overly idealised game plan, I’m also alarmed at the players’ seeming inability to maintain discipline under pressure. This has been going on all year, and may reflect the frustration they feel at the gap between the coaches’ grandiose vision and the reality.
With that in mind, we shouldn’t overlook the distorting factor of money. The Silverlake private equity investment was in an AB brand built on fast, flowing and attacking rugby that is beautiful to watch. Those sort of investors are notoriously impatient, which leaves me thinking Robertson feels he must deliver on that in every game, and those pressures are getting to the players.
What’s needed is a greater sense of pragmatism - of building the strategy around the team, rather than the team around the strategy. I still wonder at what was behind Leon Macdonald’s early exit from the coaching set-up and whether NZ Rugby’s almost panicked early appointment of Robertson has created a culture where people are now frightened to question the boss.
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris-B I agree. It looks like the ambition to play dazzling, fast and beautiful rugby exceeds the individual abilities of most of the players. It speaks perhaps to a lack of clarity of communication, pragmatism and honesty at the coaching level. Something isn’t working internally, I suspect.
Aside from the messy execution of an overly idealised game plan, I’m also alarmed at the players’ seeming inability to maintain discipline under pressure. This has been going on all year, and may reflect the frustration they feel at the gap between the coaches’ grandiose vision and the reality.
With that in mind, we shouldn’t overlook the distorting factor of money. The Silverlake private equity investment was in an AB brand built on fast, flowing and attacking rugby that is beautiful to watch. Those sort of investors are notoriously impatient, which leaves me thinking Robertson feels he must deliver on that in every game, and those pressures are getting to the players.
What’s needed is a greater sense of pragmatism - of building the strategy around the team, rather than the team around the strategy. I still wonder at what was behind Leon Macdonald’s early exit from the coaching set-up and whether NZ Rugby’s almost panicked early appointment of Robertson has created a culture where people are now frightened to question the boss.
Maybe what's missing is some wise old heads in the coaching set-up to provide a counterweight or sounding-board for the ambition - perhaps Robertson understands that for the team and why is sticking with the likes of Cane, BB etc
I genuinely think losing Schmidt was an opportunity lost and someone like him or Cotter in the set-up could make a big difference to executing the vision Robertson has.
