All Blacks 2025
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Ardie has the better dummy
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks 2025:
Summary for the future squad :
Hookers :
Codie Taylor is a certainty;
Taukei'aho as well;
Aumua : has not fully recovered from a nasty injury. LO throwing still a work on.
Moananu : he could be a bolter as he is the best LO thrower in the country and has a very good workmate. Small but strong.Loosehead props :
Tamaiti Williams : probably the best of the bunch. Strong scrummager, powerful in the loose, good hands. Defence not his strength.
Ethan de Groot : despite a poor SR rugby campaign (with the notable exception of the game against the Hurricanes), he should be in. Good scrummager but does not bring very much in the loose. Not many meters gained in regard to his impressive physique.
Olli Norris : he could be a bolter as his scrummaging is far better this year and he is the best ball carrier of them all. Good at shifting bodies in the rucks too.
George Bower : Solid servant with no weaknesses but without notable strength. He is a Crusader but his age could count against him.
Xavier Numia : he has not recovered from his long injury. Actually, he is a shadow of his former self. Not as dynamic as he used to be but scrums adequately. I don't see him join the squad.Tight head props :
Lomax : best THP in the country. He is a certainty.
Tosi : not his best season that's for sure but he is beginning to regain some form. Won a penalty but conceded one against EdG on Friday. Powerful in the loose. He should be Lomax's understudy.
Fletcher Newell : seems to carry more effectively this year. Still a strong scrummager. He should be the third THP within the squad;
George Dyer : very good workrate and good if not dominant scrummager. He could be a bolter but this would be a big surprise as far as I am concerned.Locks :
Scott Barrett : he is a certainty despite being rather anonymous this season. Will he retain his captaincy ?
Tupou Vai'i : best lock in the country ... by a country mile. Another certainty for the squad;
Patrick Tuipolutu : not a great SR season for him, hampered by a few niggles. His experience should prevail for a place in the squad.
Holland : he has not progressed as quickly as I expected but maybe it is because he is playing in a very collectively weak team. Very effective in disrupting opposition's throws at the LO, solid work in the rucks and mauls. His weakness is his lack of power in his ball carrying IMO; I think he will be selected thanks to Darry's injury.
Josh Lord : he is made of glass, despite having added a few Kgs to his frame. He is a contender but I don't see him get the nod.
Ah Kuoi : he is having a great SR season. Excellent workrate, uncompromising attitude. He may be a bit too light for an international lock.
Sam Darry : he could have been the squad's fourth lock but his injury will probably keep him out. He has all the qualities to become a world class lock IMO.
Walker-Leawere : his indiscipline should keep him out of contention. It's a shame because his power could be useful against the SA or French packs.
Antonio Shalfoon : he is the Crusaders best lock this year. I thought he was a journeyman but he did far better than I expected. He is a Crusader so he is a possibility for the squad.Loose forwards :
Ardie Savea : a certainty. Will he become the team's captain ? He probably deserves it.
Wallace Sititi : another certainty despite his recent recovery from injury. He and Savea are both outstanding ball carriers.
Hoskins Sotutu : in terms of technique, he is probably the best Nr.8 in NZ. His lack of versatility might count against him.
Peter Lakai : he was outstanding against France last year and has played better and better after a slow start in the SR. A good player to have on the bench. He should be in.
Dalton Papali'i : very sound player who lacks the X-factor one could expect from such a gifted man. He could be in but he could also but out of the squad. Who knows ?
Jacobson : solid but not brillant. Anonymous in his outings with the ABs but very good with the Chiefs. He and Papali'i are the same type of players.
Finau : the big mystery. Physically imposing but does not impose himself at the upper level. If he plays to his potential, he could be a world beater. I think he will be in because of the lack of other valuable options.
Cullen Grace : solid, excellent at the lineout but physically a bit light for an international blindside flanker.
Ethan Blackadder : great workrate but does not have the expected impact, maybe because of his automatic injuries. One of Robertson's favorites so he might be in.
Du Plessis Kirifi : excellent at the breakdown but his lack of versatility might count against him. If Tavatavanawai is selected, then Kirifi could not be needed as they both play the same "jackaling" role.
Christian Lio-Willie : strong ball carrier but physically too limited for an international Nr.8 IMO. Plays for the Crusaders, though.Halfbacks :
Cam Roigard : not his best season so far. Good passing, good kicking, but many unusual mistakes in this SR season. However, he is a certainty for the squad.
Cortez Ratima : not his best season as he has been seriously challenged by Roe. He should be in the squad though. I'd like the idea of having two distinct combos : Roigard/Love and Ratima/DMac in the 23.
Finlay Christie : I don't think he will make the squad because he has been rather meh so far.
Noah Hotham : he could be in though he is not the finished article yet. Snipes well but his passing is too slow.
Fakatava : snipes well too but his passing lets him down at times. Tends to make silly errors but he can be brillant.
Funaki : solid but does not play for the good team and is not yet the finished article.
Preston : plays for the Saders. Sharp pass but weak in defence. I don't think he will make it.1st Five :
DMac : probably the best in the country. The Chiefs are a different team when he is not their playmaker.
Beauden Barrett : I guess he will be selected but more on his reputation than on his recent performances. Questionable goal and tactical kicking. However, he is still capable of showing glimpses of his former brillance.
Ruben Love : like the two above, he can play fullback and 1st Five. Brillant player with a thousand qualities. Questions about his game management as a 1st Five.2nd Five :
Jordie Barrett : he is a certainty. 2nd Five is probably his best position.
David Havili : one of Robertson's favorites but has not done a lot at the upper level. Will he get selected while there are other younger options ?
Quinn Tupaea : solid and uncompromising but still has to prove his worth on the international scene. If Havili is in, then he would be out of the squad.
Riley Higgins : good passer and offloader but his defence is still a work on. I have doubts about his chances to get picked.
Tavatavanawai : he is a type of player the ABs never had in their ranks. He could bring something different. He is a constant menace at the breakdown and could be useful in a tight game where the ABs have to defend their line. He could be a bolter for the selection.Centres :
Rieko Ioane : not a good year for him so far. He should be in, though, thanks to his anteriority and lack of experienced alternatives.
Billy Proctor : the best passing centre in NZ. He knows how to put a player into space. Good in defence, too. It would be a very bad surprise if he is not selected.
Tanielu Tele'a : strongest ball carrying centre in NZ. I don't know much about his defensive qualities. His versatility could make him a bolter for the squad.Back three :
Will Jordan : he is a certainty, probably as a fullback but with three potential fullbacks (DMac, BB and Love), he could be pushed to the right wing.
Caleb Clarke : Not a good season for him but he has plenty of qualities (speed, strength and safety under the high balls) which will probably take him into the squad.
Sevu Reece : great workrate but his lack of speed against the likes of Bielle Biarrey and Kolbe could be a major deficiency. I really don't know whether he will be selected or not.
Mark Tele'a : he certainly knows how the slip through tackles but his lack of speed and the fact that he is heading overseas might count against him.
Emoni Narawa : no known weaknesses. Has been very good so far for the Chiefs.
AJ Lam : can play wing, 2nd Five and centre. Quick and powerful, he has already been in the AB squad and could well retain his place.
Leroy Carter : has entered the conversation lately. His defensive frailties and inexperience at the highest level could count against him.
Caleb Tangitau : a shame that he has been injured as he was the form winger before. His sheer speed is something the ABs did not have in their squad last year. He is not yet the finished article but I'd like to see him taken at least as an apprentice.
Shaun Stevenson : he has been very good for the Chiefs this year. Brillant in attack and big boot. Has not shown the defensive lapses he used to show the years before. Unfortunately he is leaving so he won't get picked.
Bailyn Sullivan : he has been great for the Hurricanes. Excellent tackler and opportunist try scorer. Despite these positive accomplishments, it would be a big surprise to see him getting selected.Well thought through and comprehensive summary.
I think Tosi is in the equation at TH.
Is the comment about Numia’s calf injury an observation or based on some published info?@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2025:
Summary for the future squad :
Hookers :
Codie Taylor is a certainty;
Taukei'aho as well;
Aumua : has not fully recovered from a nasty injury. LO throwing still a work on.
Moananu : he could be a bolter as he is the best LO thrower in the country and has a very good workmate. Small but strong.Loosehead props :
Tamaiti Williams : probably the best of the bunch. Strong scrummager, powerful in the loose, good hands. Defence not his strength.
Ethan de Groot : despite a poor SR rugby campaign (with the notable exception of the game against the Hurricanes), he should be in. Good scrummager but does not bring very much in the loose. Not many meters gained in regard to his impressive physique.
Olli Norris : he could be a bolter as his scrummaging is far better this year and he is the best ball carrier of them all. Good at shifting bodies in the rucks too.
George Bower : Solid servant with no weaknesses but without notable strength. He is a Crusader but his age could count against him.
Xavier Numia : he has not recovered from his long injury. Actually, he is a shadow of his former self. Not as dynamic as he used to be but scrums adequately. I don't see him join the squad.Tight head props :
Lomax : best THP in the country. He is a certainty.
Tosi : not his best season that's for sure but he is beginning to regain some form. Won a penalty but conceded one against EdG on Friday. Powerful in the loose. He should be Lomax's understudy.
Fletcher Newell : seems to carry more effectively this year. Still a strong scrummager. He should be the third THP within the squad;
George Dyer : very good workrate and good if not dominant scrummager. He could be a bolter but this would be a big surprise as far as I am concerned.Locks :
Scott Barrett : he is a certainty despite being rather anonymous this season. Will he retain his captaincy ?
Tupou Vai'i : best lock in the country ... by a country mile. Another certainty for the squad;
Patrick Tuipolutu : not a great SR season for him, hampered by a few niggles. His experience should prevail for a place in the squad.
Holland : he has not progressed as quickly as I expected but maybe it is because he is playing in a very collectively weak team. Very effective in disrupting opposition's throws at the LO, solid work in the rucks and mauls. His weakness is his lack of power in his ball carrying IMO; I think he will be selected thanks to Darry's injury.
Josh Lord : he is made of glass, despite having added a few Kgs to his frame. He is a contender but I don't see him get the nod.
Ah Kuoi : he is having a great SR season. Excellent workrate, uncompromising attitude. He may be a bit too light for an international lock.
Sam Darry : he could have been the squad's fourth lock but his injury will probably keep him out. He has all the qualities to become a world class lock IMO.
Walker-Leawere : his indiscipline should keep him out of contention. It's a shame because his power could be useful against the SA or French packs.
Antonio Shalfoon : he is the Crusaders best lock this year. I thought he was a journeyman but he did far better than I expected. He is a Crusader so he is a possibility for the squad.Loose forwards :
Ardie Savea : a certainty. Will he become the team's captain ? He probably deserves it.
Wallace Sititi : another certainty despite his recent recovery from injury. He and Savea are both outstanding ball carriers.
Hoskins Sotutu : in terms of technique, he is probably the best Nr.8 in NZ. His lack of versatility might count against him.
Peter Lakai : he was outstanding against France last year and has played better and better after a slow start in the SR. A good player to have on the bench. He should be in.
Dalton Papali'i : very sound player who lacks the X-factor one could expect from such a gifted man. He could be in but he could also but out of the squad. Who knows ?
Jacobson : solid but not brillant. Anonymous in his outings with the ABs but very good with the Chiefs. He and Papali'i are the same type of players.
Finau : the big mystery. Physically imposing but does not impose himself at the upper level. If he plays to his potential, he could be a world beater. I think he will be in because of the lack of other valuable options.
Cullen Grace : solid, excellent at the lineout but physically a bit light for an international blindside flanker.
Ethan Blackadder : great workrate but does not have the expected impact, maybe because of his automatic injuries. One of Robertson's favorites so he might be in.
Du Plessis Kirifi : excellent at the breakdown but his lack of versatility might count against him. If Tavatavanawai is selected, then Kirifi could not be needed as they both play the same "jackaling" role.
Christian Lio-Willie : strong ball carrier but physically too limited for an international Nr.8 IMO. Plays for the Crusaders, though.Halfbacks :
Cam Roigard : not his best season so far. Good passing, good kicking, but many unusual mistakes in this SR season. However, he is a certainty for the squad.
Cortez Ratima : not his best season as he has been seriously challenged by Roe. He should be in the squad though. I'd like the idea of having two distinct combos : Roigard/Love and Ratima/DMac in the 23.
Finlay Christie : I don't think he will make the squad because he has been rather meh so far.
Noah Hotham : he could be in though he is not the finished article yet. Snipes well but his passing is too slow.
Fakatava : snipes well too but his passing lets him down at times. Tends to make silly errors but he can be brillant.
Funaki : solid but does not play for the good team and is not yet the finished article.
Preston : plays for the Saders. Sharp pass but weak in defence. I don't think he will make it.1st Five :
DMac : probably the best in the country. The Chiefs are a different team when he is not their playmaker.
Beauden Barrett : I guess he will be selected but more on his reputation than on his recent performances. Questionable goal and tactical kicking. However, he is still capable of showing glimpses of his former brillance.
Ruben Love : like the two above, he can play fullback and 1st Five. Brillant player with a thousand qualities. Questions about his game management as a 1st Five.2nd Five :
Jordie Barrett : he is a certainty. 2nd Five is probably his best position.
David Havili : one of Robertson's favorites but has not done a lot at the upper level. Will he get selected while there are other younger options ?
Quinn Tupaea : solid and uncompromising but still has to prove his worth on the international scene. If Havili is in, then he would be out of the squad.
Riley Higgins : good passer and offloader but his defence is still a work on. I have doubts about his chances to get picked.
Tavatavanawai : he is a type of player the ABs never had in their ranks. He could bring something different. He is a constant menace at the breakdown and could be useful in a tight game where the ABs have to defend their line. He could be a bolter for the selection.Centres :
Rieko Ioane : not a good year for him so far. He should be in, though, thanks to his anteriority and lack of experienced alternatives.
Billy Proctor : the best passing centre in NZ. He knows how to put a player into space. Good in defence, too. It would be a very bad surprise if he is not selected.
Tanielu Tele'a : strongest ball carrying centre in NZ. I don't know much about his defensive qualities. His versatility could make him a bolter for the squad.Back three :
Will Jordan : he is a certainty, probably as a fullback but with three potential fullbacks (DMac, BB and Love), he could be pushed to the right wing.
Caleb Clarke : Not a good season for him but he has plenty of qualities (speed, strength and safety under the high balls) which will probably take him into the squad.
Sevu Reece : great workrate but his lack of speed against the likes of Bielle Biarrey and Kolbe could be a major deficiency. I really don't know whether he will be selected or not.
Mark Tele'a : he certainly knows how the slip through tackles but his lack of speed and the fact that he is heading overseas might count against him.
Emoni Narawa : no known weaknesses. Has been very good so far for the Chiefs.
AJ Lam : can play wing, 2nd Five and centre. Quick and powerful, he has already been in the AB squad and could well retain his place.
Leroy Carter : has entered the conversation lately. His defensive frailties and inexperience at the highest level could count against him.
Caleb Tangitau : a shame that he has been injured as he was the form winger before. His sheer speed is something the ABs did not have in their squad last year. He is not yet the finished article but I'd like to see him taken at least as an apprentice.
Shaun Stevenson : he has been very good for the Chiefs this year. Brillant in attack and big boot. Has not shown the defensive lapses he used to show the years before. Unfortunately he is leaving so he won't get picked.
Bailyn Sullivan : he has been great for the Hurricanes. Excellent tackler and opportunist try scorer. Despite these positive accomplishments, it would be a big surprise to see him getting selected.Well thought through and comprehensive summary.
I think Tosi is in the equation at TH.
Is the comment about Numia’s calf injury an observation or based on some published info?Numia has been very good for the Hurricanes in the last 2 weeks. Was the main source of momentum and go forward.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks 2025:
Bolters XV
Norris
Moananu
Dyer
Holland
Beehre
Howden
Ķirifi
Parker
Roe
Reihana
Carter
Tavatavanawai
Tele'a
Tangitau
KneepkensMore of an uncapped XV but still a good list.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2025:
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2025:
Bolters XV
Norris
Moananu
Dyer
Holland
Beehre
Howden
Ķirifi
Parker
Roe
Reihana
Carter
Tavatavanawai
Tele'a
Tangitau
KneepkensMore of an uncapped XV but still a good list.
that's an interesting side and quite a nippy backline.
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@Victor-Meldrew
The biggest mistake by far over the last 5 years has been the ridiculous conservatism of the AB coaches. They ignored form and favoured the incumbents@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew
The biggest mistake by far over the last 5 years has been the ridiculous conservatism of the AB coaches. They ignored form and favoured the incumbentsI think this has to do with contracts and NZR finances and budget. If you have signed a player on a lucrative deal the reality is you have to still pay him if the coach does not select him and then find new money to pay the new player. When NZR is making losses a coach who did this to often would not be endearing himself.
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Aj lam I would add to that list
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
-
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
I agree, work rate without impact, is futile
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
Despite going off injured in about half the games he's played, I'd still be very, very surprised if EB has ever managed to have a game with 1 tackle made.
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Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden Barret@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden BarretChristie, Havili, Bower(would like to see a younger guy eased into that 3rd loose-head role). I’ve seen enough of Blackadder and won’t be mad if he’s left out(we all know he won’t be). Fihaki.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
Despite going off injured in about half the games he's played, I'd still be very, very surprised if EB has ever managed to have a game with 1 tackle made.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
Despite going off injured in about half the games he's played, I'd still be very, very surprised if EB has ever managed to have a game with 1 tackle made.
I wasn't saying that at all.
-
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden Barret@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden BarretI'm not a fan of Havilli but not sure I really don't want him selected. Same with Blackadder. There's lots of players I'd rather have selected over them though. So I guess that's don't want then, but not a strong don't want.
Reece.
Christie.
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The Breakdown crew, in particular Steven Donald were talking up Finlay Christie last night.
Players we need to move on from:
- Christie
- Blackadder
- need to shift Ioane back to the wing
- I’m not sold on Bower
- don’t mind Barrett in the squad, don’t want him the 23.
- Havili
Who I’d like to see picked based on Super form
- Parker
- Kirifi
- Holland
- Norris
- Lam
- Fakatava because I think he brings real x-factor off the bench
- Tangitau once fit.
- Tupaea
