All Blacks 2025
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Aj lam I would add to that list
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
I agree, work rate without impact, is futile
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
Despite going off injured in about half the games he's played, I'd still be very, very surprised if EB has ever managed to have a game with 1 tackle made.
-
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden Barret@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden BarretChristie, Havili, Bower(would like to see a younger guy eased into that 3rd loose-head role). I’ve seen enough of Blackadder and won’t be mad if he’s left out(we all know he won’t be). Fihaki.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
Despite going off injured in about half the games he's played, I'd still be very, very surprised if EB has ever managed to have a game with 1 tackle made.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Not to mention in the final we were street fighting with a man down (actually considering Ryan's bestie the Tongan twat's contribution we were actually two men down) for much of the game.
A Sotutu or a Sititi could help open up the space in that street fight - meanwhile EB will be as busy as ever running from ruck to ruck and making it in time to be effectual a 3rd of the time ....
I agree on the first part, but when operating a man (or two) down, workrate like EB would be kinda handy too.
Effectual workrate would be, EB hasn't always been effective in the past ....
Good Crusader bait there :fishing_pole:
Despite going off injured in about half the games he's played, I'd still be very, very surprised if EB has ever managed to have a game with 1 tackle made.
I wasn't saying that at all.
-
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden Barret@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden BarretI'm not a fan of Havilli but not sure I really don't want him selected. Same with Blackadder. There's lots of players I'd rather have selected over them though. So I guess that's don't want then, but not a strong don't want.
Reece.
Christie.
-
The Breakdown crew, in particular Steven Donald were talking up Finlay Christie last night.
Players we need to move on from:
- Christie
- Blackadder
- need to shift Ioane back to the wing
- I’m not sold on Bower
- don’t mind Barrett in the squad, don’t want him the 23.
- Havili
Who I’d like to see picked based on Super form
- Parker
- Kirifi
- Holland
- Norris
- Lam
- Fakatava because I think he brings real x-factor off the bench
- Tangitau once fit.
- Tupaea
-
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden Barret@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone got players you really DON"T want to see selected?
For me - Christie and Havili.
And to a lesser extent - Beauden BarretYes.
According to Google there are 155,568 registered rugby players in NZ.
There are approximately 155,520 of them that I don't want selected. Over the next several days, I shall list them all by name in alphabetical order.
- Aaron Aardvark
-
The Breakdown crew, in particular Steven Donald were talking up Finlay Christie last night.
Players we need to move on from:
- Christie
- Blackadder
- need to shift Ioane back to the wing
- I’m not sold on Bower
- don’t mind Barrett in the squad, don’t want him the 23.
- Havili
Who I’d like to see picked based on Super form
- Parker
- Kirifi
- Holland
- Norris
- Lam
- Fakatava because I think he brings real x-factor off the bench
- Tangitau once fit.
- Tupaea
@Canes4life never quite realised how many of our milquetoast All Blacks are from Ta$man
-
@Canes4life never quite realised how many of our milquetoast All Blacks are from Ta$man
@Grooter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life never quite realised how many of our milquetoast All Blacks are from Ta$man
Simple advice for the other provinces - get better!
Razor's philosophy is, "When in doubt select from Ta$man. At a minimum they will be smarter"!
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
-
The Breakdown crew, in particular Steven Donald were talking up Finlay Christie last night.
Players we need to move on from:
- Christie
- Blackadder
- need to shift Ioane back to the wing
- I’m not sold on Bower
- don’t mind Barrett in the squad, don’t want him the 23.
- Havili
Who I’d like to see picked based on Super form
- Parker
- Kirifi
- Holland
- Norris
- Lam
- Fakatava because I think he brings real x-factor off the bench
- Tangitau once fit.
- Tupaea
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
- I’m not sold on Bower
Then you’re not watching close enough. Solid as a rock in the scrum and in the tight. Makes his tackles and cleans out when required. Does the small things at a high level. Not a big runner of the ball.
But they will likely have him on standby similar to last year and continue to invest in the future with that spot. And if it all goes pear shape or injuries strike they know they have a dependable player in waiting.
-
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
- I’m not sold on Bower
Then you’re not watching close enough. Solid as a rock in the scrum and in the tight. Makes his tackles and cleans out when required. Does the small things at a high level. Not a big runner of the ball.
But they will likely have him on standby similar to last year and continue to invest in the future with that spot. And if it all goes pear shape or injuries strike they know they have a dependable player in waiting.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
- I’m not sold on Bower
Then you’re not watching close enough. Solid as a rock in the scrum and in the tight. Makes his tackles and cleans out when required. Does the small things at a high level. Not a big runner of the ball.
But they will likely have him on standby similar to last year and continue to invest in the future with that spot. And if it all goes pear shape or injuries strike they know they have a dependable player in waiting.
Bower has been a defensive liability at test level.
-
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
- I’m not sold on Bower
Then you’re not watching close enough. Solid as a rock in the scrum and in the tight. Makes his tackles and cleans out when required. Does the small things at a high level. Not a big runner of the ball.
But they will likely have him on standby similar to last year and continue to invest in the future with that spot. And if it all goes pear shape or injuries strike they know they have a dependable player in waiting.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
- I’m not sold on Bower
Then you’re not watching close enough. Solid as a rock in the scrum and in the tight. Makes his tackles and cleans out when required. Does the small things at a high level. Not a big runner of the ball.
But they will likely have him on standby similar to last year and continue to invest in the future with that spot. And if it all goes pear shape or injuries strike they know they have a dependable player in waiting.
I agree with that. Not our first choice, but still handy to have when injuries hit, and I never rated him at all when I first saw him and couldn't believe he got called up at the time in 2020, but he's grown on me and is a solid player.
Maybe the loosehead version of Angus Ta’avao?
