All Blacks 2025
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
Whatever can be said of Sam Cane as an All Black, the idea of him bottling it is def. not one of them.
He's the first player to be red carded in an RWC final because he failed to keep his discipline.
Big arrow you've drawn there between lack of bottle and getting a (dubious IMHO) red card.
Bottling it means failing to do something and he failed to keep his tackles down with a lazy high shot. He failed to keep his discipline in a high pressure game. Whether or not the red is dubious is irrelevant. It was a high shot and he created that moment which forced an official to deliberate.
If he had kept his tackle down there would be nothing for the officials to judge.
Your contention has merit when looked at in isolation, but not when Kolisi gets away with a worse transgression in the very same game.
That's also irrelevant.
All Cane had to do was keep his tackle low and we wouldn't be having this debate. Again, Cane opened the door to let a flakey NH official decide his fate. No one else during the game. Cane.
But that's the exact issue. It's impossible for any dominant tackling loosie to keep 100% of their tackles low, mistakes happen.
"All" Cane had to do is something nobody else does. For example, Kolisi in the same game - so now Kolisi is lauded by all and sundry, while you are vilifying Cane - when they did the exact same damn thing, and the only thing that really causes that polar difference is the ref's inconsistent interpretation.Dude. I'm not vilifying him. I'm simply saying he failed to keep his discipline in an RWC final when the pressure was on. There is nothing abusive in my comments towards him.
He doesn't get a pass for his performance because officials have varied responses to high tackles. It was a high tackle. His performance was poor.
Psdt made 28 tackles in that final and none of them were high despite him being 15cm taller than Cane.
Great performance from Ardie. Poor from Cane and Frizell.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Psdt made 28 tackles in that final and none of them were high despite him being 15cm taller than Cane.
And Kolisi didn't manage to get through the game without a high tackle, and didn't receive the same punishment for his tackle.
Cane made one less tackle than the great performing Ardie in that match.
No one is saying that he shouldn't have tackled lower, but ignoring (because you have a hill you want to die on) that he was unfairly treated in the context of other infractions in that game is reductive.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
lol look at your walking back hard from this here hottest of hot takes.
Your words dude. Sam Cane's true colours were a big game bottler. 104 tests as a complete warrior for the ABs. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black. Ignore all that, really that's not his true colours.
It's a shit take.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
lol look at your walking back hard from this here hottest of hot takes.
Your words dude. Sam Cane's true colours were a big game bottler. 104 tests as a complete warrior for the ABs. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black. Ignore all that, really that's not his true colours.
It's a shit take.
I'm sorry but I cant accept a guy who battled back from a broken neck to not only play Rugby again but also captain his country be called a bottler.
Im with Mariner here. Your take was low rent.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
lol look at your walking back hard from this here hottest of hot takes.
Your words dude. Sam Cane's true colours were a big game bottler. 104 tests as a complete warrior for the ABs. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black. Ignore all that, really that's not his true colours.
It's a shit take.
He did bottle it.
That's not vilifying or dragging his name through the dirt.
He failed to perform anywhere close to his best potential because he got himself ejected from the game through poor discipline.
He got carded in the previous game against the Boks in London too because again he failed to maintain his discipline under pressure.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
lol look at your walking back hard from this here hottest of hot takes.
Your words dude. Sam Cane's true colours were a big game bottler. 104 tests as a complete warrior for the ABs. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black. Ignore all that, really that's not his true colours.
It's a shit take.
He did bottle it.
That's not vilifying or dragging his name through the dirt.
He failed to perform anywhere close to his best potential because he got himself ejected from the game through poor discipline.
He got carded in the previous game against the Boks in London too because again he failed to maintain his discipline under pressure.
I can accept that he put himself at the mercy of the ref by tackling high, and was punished. I don't think it's malicious, perhaps more of a technical error because he'd done it more than once. The inconsistency is another issue but also true.
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Failed to perform to his best potential. Bottler.
https://www.tiktok.com/@newzealand638/video/7295450619324779777
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Failed to perform to his best potential. Bottler.
https://www.tiktok.com/@newzealand638/video/7295450619324779777
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
Failed to perform to his best potential. Bottler.
https://www.tiktok.com/@newzealand638/video/7295450619324779777
Both Richie and Jordie missed go ahead kicks. Merhts missed a DG in 1995, the French guy missed a similar kick in 2011.
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Failed to perform to his best potential. Bottler.
https://www.tiktok.com/@newzealand638/video/7295450619324779777
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
Failed to perform to his best potential. Bottler.
https://www.tiktok.com/@newzealand638/video/7295450619324779777
"Bottle it - To fail in an embarrassing way in a crucial situation, especially due to nerves. "
Did he fail in an embarrassing way in a crucial situation? Yes. He was clearly embarrassed so it was embarrassing. Was it a crucial situation? Yes. RWC final.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
lol look at your walking back hard from this here hottest of hot takes.
Your words dude. Sam Cane's true colours were a big game bottler. 104 tests as a complete warrior for the ABs. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black. Ignore all that, really that's not his true colours.
It's a shit take.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black.
To be fair, it was 14 days. Everybody loves a pedant.
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While we are all assuming Wallace will play 8 , I thought he was easily our best 6 last year as well.
Maybe it’s not as clear cut as we think .
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
While we are all assuming Wallace will play 8 , I thought he was easily our best 6 last year as well.
Maybe it’s not as clear cut as we think .
So you’re saying we should pick him at 7?
I like your thinking
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
Failed to perform to his best potential. Bottler.
https://www.tiktok.com/@newzealand638/video/7295450619324779777
"Bottle it - To fail in an embarrassing way in a crucial situation, especially due to nerves. "
Did he fail in an embarrassing way in a crucial situation? Yes. He was clearly embarrassed so it was embarrassing. Was it a crucial situation? Yes. RWC final.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
Failed to perform to his best potential. Bottler.
https://www.tiktok.com/@newzealand638/video/7295450619324779777
"Bottle it - To fail in an embarrassing way in a crucial situation, especially due to nerves. "
Did he fail in an embarrassing way in a crucial situation? Yes. He was clearly embarrassed so it was embarrassing. Was it a crucial situation? Yes. RWC final.
Not sure why we used Barrett in that moment. He had failed kicking a similar penalty for the Canes against the Brumbies two years in a row which resulted us losing a quarter final on both occasions.
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@sparky That can't be right. Aaron is a sharemilker from Tuatapere and plays Presidents grade!
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Back on the 2025 ABs
Who will be the initial back up 14 (assuming Reece gets the 14 jersey)
Narawa? Tele'a?
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
Back on the 2025 ABs
Who will be the initial back up 14 (assuming Reece gets the 14 jersey)
Narawa? Tele'a?
I wouldn't pick Tele'a myself.
Maybe Will Jordan covers there with Rieko Ioane? They didn't seem overly keen on Narawa last year.
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Would like to see Rieko at 14. NZ's premier attacking back with sound defense. Too good to leave out but add Proctor at 13 for distribution and Mr Fixit. That young French 11 especially (if he is coming) looks nasty to defend against. It would feel better if someone with experience and gas was opposing him.
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My starting backline:
Roigard
McKenzie
Clark
Barrett
Proctor
Ioane
Jordan. -
My starting backline:
Roigard
McKenzie
Clark
Barrett
Proctor
Ioane
Jordan.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2025:
My starting backline:
Roigard
McKenzie
Clark
Barrett
Proctor
Ioane
Jordan.That’s exactly what I would pick as well. Ioane is still a deadly finisher.
Ratima, Love and Jim for impact?
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To reprosecute this argument because it still fucking irritates me:
Wayne Barnes and Tom Foley set the standard with some baffling logic in 2022, introducing the world to the concept of a "soak tackle". Which translated meant a lock getting his cheekbone broken by a tackler.
Fast forward a year and a bit and these two giant intellects of the game decided that now was the time to revisit this soak tackle interpretation of theirs and send off Sam "puppy kicker" Cane despite the fact it actually was a soak tackle - Kriel dominated the tackle vector and was uninjured, save for his masculinity and integrity as he writhed in pain until the card was waved in the direction of Saint Sam, defender of orphans' kittens.
WR should be fined and banned for a RWC cycle for that disgusting travesty.
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My starting backline:
Roigard
McKenzie
Clark
Barrett
Proctor
Ioane
Jordan.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2025:
My starting backline:
Roigard
McKenzie
Clark
Barrett
Proctor
Ioane
Jordan.Looks dangerous
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To reprosecute this argument because it still fucking irritates me:
Wayne Barnes and Tom Foley set the standard with some baffling logic in 2022, introducing the world to the concept of a "soak tackle". Which translated meant a lock getting his cheekbone broken by a tackler.
Fast forward a year and a bit and these two giant intellects of the game decided that now was the time to revisit this soak tackle interpretation of theirs and send off Sam "puppy kicker" Cane despite the fact it actually was a soak tackle - Kriel dominated the tackle vector and was uninjured, save for his masculinity and integrity as he writhed in pain until the card was waved in the direction of Saint Sam, defender of orphans' kittens.
WR should be fined and banned for a RWC cycle for that disgusting travesty.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
To reprosecute this argument because it still fucking irritates me:
Wayne Barnes and Tom Foley set the standard with some baffling logic in 2022, introducing the world to the concept of a "soak tackle". Which translated meant a lock getting his cheekbone broken by a tackler.
Fast forward a year and a bit and these two giant intellects of the game decided that now was the time to revisit this soak tackle interpretation of theirs and send off Sam "puppy kicker" Cane despite the fact it actually was a soak tackle - Kriel dominated the tackle vector and was uninjured, save for his masculinity and integrity as he writhed in pain until the card was waved in the direction of Saint Sam, defender of orphans' kittens.
WR should be fined and banned for a RWC cycle for that disgusting travesty.
But still probably should have gotten lower, knowing that these fluffybunnies were never going to give him the benefit of the doubt
