All Blacks 2025
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@nostrildamus 10 to 13 is a bit of a snore fest.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
I think the big difference is we all know the original coaching group assembled by Foster wasn't the one he wanted, it was the one he could get.
Apart from Leon walking out the door, is this the group Razor wanted? Because a bunch of them look as out of their depth as Foster's originals.
Foster was hamstrung by the ineptitude of the board wasn't he? IIRC he wanted Brown and Joseph, but by the time the board actually opened up applications they were gone? Razor has no such excuse. They gave him what he wanted in terms of coaches
correct
its in his book -
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.
This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
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Not really sure why you drop Leroy Carter in favour of Clarke when you had the option of picking Clarke for the Boks but chose not to.
It strikes me that Clarke would have been the more obvious selection for Wellington and Carter would perform well in the Bledisloe as he did in super rugby. As it is I think Carter did enough to deserve a second start.
The thinking process behind some of the selections is tough to figure out.
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@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@upthelanders understand he isn't available even no he's training.
Had so many people saying the same unless of a major injury in the squad.Yet Razor comes out in an interview saying LF is available if you are correct what a clown show.
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@upthelanders said in All Blacks 2025:
So the backline is gonna look like
9. Roigard
10. Barrett
11. Clarke
12. J. Barrett
13. Ioane
14. ??
15. ?? Jordan?
Looks like Fosters backline lol although if I have a punt I reckon we will win at Eden Park the boys will find a way but then we will be found wanting in Perth
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.
This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.
This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
They are all the same to me.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.
This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
They are all the same to me.
I understand, like you Cantabs for me.
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@Chris we deserve too. Dropping Carter after one game is ridiculous, was arguably our best back against the Boks.
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@upthelanders said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris we deserve too. Dropping Carter after one game is ridiculous, was arguably our best back against the Boks.
Yeah. Definitely deserves a second crack imo.. He didn't get all that much ball but when he got it he looked dangerous - had that play in the first half where he came off his left foot a couple of times and made some nice metres.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.
Isn't this the biggest problem for the dysfunction of the backline? Jordie is a very limited 12 too as far as distribution goes.
Yes a massive problem it breaks down around BB mostly.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
By the sound of the backline selection if its true,We are back to a complete disfuctioning backline who may well get taught a big lesson from the Aussie backline.
Back to? As if we ever left
What I said back to meaning, same as the last tests .
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
Razor's lack of international experience is only part of a wider problem across the coaching group - i.e. that he has loaded up the coaching group with his mates who also have no international experience (Ryan aside, obviously). In that scenario, you're really leaning heavily on the players who have international experience to provide a lot of the stuff that only that experience can bring. Hence, the conservative selections and the over reliance on two particularly problematic players in the 7 and 10 jerseys.
Edit: And when you couple the above with the general ethos of player empowerment, it does make you wonder whether Razor and his coaching group have put too much faith in the players. Player empowerment is obviously required to a certain extent to get buy-in, but literally handing players the team only works when you've got all-time greats like McCaw, Carter, Whitelock, etc. - it's likely to be a dismal failure when your most trusted players are brainless idiots like the Barretts and Savea.
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@junior said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
Razor's lack of international experience is only part of a wider problem across the coaching group - i.e. that he has loaded up the coaching group with his mates who also have no international experience (Ryan aside, obviously). In that scenario, you're really leaning heavily on the players who have international experience to provide a lot of the stuff that only that experience can bring. Hence, the conservative selections and the over reliance on two particularly problematic players in the 7 and 10 jerseys.
Edit: And when you couple the above with the general ethos of player empowerment, it does make you wonder whether Razor and his coaching group have put too much faith in the players. Player empowerment is obviously required to a certain extent to get buy-in, but literally handing players the team only works when you've got all-time greats like McCaw, Carter, Whitelock, etc. - it's likely to be a dismal failure when your most trusted players are brainless idiots like the Barretts and Savea.
Just FYI, Scott Hansen was an assistant coach to Japan under Jamie Joseph for 3 years.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
Given that, and this goal of his to win two World Cups with different teams, I would have expected him to be significantly less conservative in his approach and less afraid of losing in his first two years. He also could have used the goal of winning the World Cup to buy himself some forgiveness when things didn't go so well.
I actually think he had massive amounts of goodwill at the beginning of his tenure basically to toss out the Foster years and pick a bunch of up-and-coming kids. The results might not have been any better (not sure they would have been any worse) but the potential feel good factor about the future would have bought him another year of goodwill into 2025.
As it was, he basically picked Foster's team, publicly begged to be able to pick two more overseas based players from that team, played Foster rugby and got Foster results. Now, he has bugger all goodwill and people are starting to question whether he should continue in the job.
