All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@JA said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
Agree with the general sentiment about the makeup of the loose forwards. But individually I thought Lakai was fine if in the last game. He made post contact metres in heavy traffic, his detail around ball presentation and body positioning was spot on. Granted he got limited chances but seemed up to the physical stuff in that sample. Let's how he goes against the bigger bodies the Wobs have returning this week.
Agree I have high hopes for Lakai, he's a significant upgrade on Kirifi and this years version of Sititi (who really needed to go back to NPC to get some minutes/form under his belt). The problem, as always for some reason, is the balance of the loosies. I don't know why they can't get that right, even ignoring the obvious Blues players they have snubbed we should be able to get a much better balanced trio on the park. Oh and Ardie has been an abject failure at 7, which is hardly surprising given what we need from a 7 in the modern game vs what he brings to the table.
Savea is an obvious issue because he's the size he is and he plays the way he plays, rather than the way you want an openside or number eight to play and he avoids doing a lot of the hard work. Players in other positions need to make up for his deficiencies to achieve a balance and that means they'd need to play a different way to their natural game or the traditional style of whatever position they're playing and they need to be on the larger side too. Move on from Savea, or at least stick him on the bench, and I suspect finding the right balance would become a lot easier.
Yeah agree, I've wanted him on the bench for years now. Not because I think he's a bad player, just that he would be an absolute fucking weapon to bring on with 30 to go. But that'll never happen because we don't tend to view our bench as a weapon, we just want to stack it with jacks of all trades to cover every single possible injury scenario. I would love it if we could move away from the idea of someone being put on the bench being "dropped" or "demoted" - the modern game is a 23 man game, SA have understood that for years.
Here's this week's bench:
Samisoni Taukei’aho (38)
George Bower (23)
Pasilio Tosi (11)
Patrick Tuipulotu (55)
Wallace Sititi (14)
Cortez Ratima (17)
Rieko Ioane (86)
Ruben Love (3)Which of these vanilla jacks of all trades shall we fuck off?
Admittedly George might not be the most dynamic, but we've got two of our best three looseheads out injured.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@JA said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
Agree with the general sentiment about the makeup of the loose forwards. But individually I thought Lakai was fine if in the last game. He made post contact metres in heavy traffic, his detail around ball presentation and body positioning was spot on. Granted he got limited chances but seemed up to the physical stuff in that sample. Let's how he goes against the bigger bodies the Wobs have returning this week.
Agree I have high hopes for Lakai, he's a significant upgrade on Kirifi and this years version of Sititi (who really needed to go back to NPC to get some minutes/form under his belt). The problem, as always for some reason, is the balance of the loosies. I don't know why they can't get that right, even ignoring the obvious Blues players they have snubbed we should be able to get a much better balanced trio on the park. Oh and Ardie has been an abject failure at 7, which is hardly surprising given what we need from a 7 in the modern game vs what he brings to the table.
Savea is an obvious issue because he's the size he is and he plays the way he plays, rather than the way you want an openside or number eight to play and he avoids doing a lot of the hard work. Players in other positions need to make up for his deficiencies to achieve a balance and that means they'd need to play a different way to their natural game or the traditional style of whatever position they're playing and they need to be on the larger side too. Move on from Savea, or at least stick him on the bench, and I suspect finding the right balance would become a lot easier.
Yeah agree, I've wanted him on the bench for years now. Not because I think he's a bad player, just that he would be an absolute fucking weapon to bring on with 30 to go. But that'll never happen because we don't tend to view our bench as a weapon, we just want to stack it with jacks of all trades to cover every single possible injury scenario. I would love it if we could move away from the idea of someone being put on the bench being "dropped" or "demoted" - the modern game is a 23 man game, SA have understood that for years.
Savea might even get through as much work in 30 minutes as he does in 80. Not needing to 'pace himself', i.e. avoid hitting rucks and making tackles, he might be able to go all out, do the hard work and still get his highlights in.
I agree about the use of the bench in general and would add that bench players don't need to play fewer minutes than those starting. I'm not necessarily advocating for this but just as an example, rather than starting Roigard, waiting for him to fade, then having to bring on a massive downgrade with Ratima and make the last quarter much easier for the opposition, they could start Ratima and bring Roigard on before half time, leaving him with more in the tank to go up against tired opposition at the end of the game.
Amen to this. Another one I've advocated for in the past is Samisoni (or Asafo when ST was injured) to start, take a heap of hard carries for 30 mins, then have Taylor - who excels in more space and is easily our best lineout thrower - on when there is more space, and the game is on the line and we can't be fucking up lineouts.
edit to say: and the same should have been done with McAlister the other week.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@JA said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
Agree with the general sentiment about the makeup of the loose forwards. But individually I thought Lakai was fine if in the last game. He made post contact metres in heavy traffic, his detail around ball presentation and body positioning was spot on. Granted he got limited chances but seemed up to the physical stuff in that sample. Let's how he goes against the bigger bodies the Wobs have returning this week.
Agree I have high hopes for Lakai, he's a significant upgrade on Kirifi and this years version of Sititi (who really needed to go back to NPC to get some minutes/form under his belt). The problem, as always for some reason, is the balance of the loosies. I don't know why they can't get that right, even ignoring the obvious Blues players they have snubbed we should be able to get a much better balanced trio on the park. Oh and Ardie has been an abject failure at 7, which is hardly surprising given what we need from a 7 in the modern game vs what he brings to the table.
Savea is an obvious issue because he's the size he is and he plays the way he plays, rather than the way you want an openside or number eight to play and he avoids doing a lot of the hard work. Players in other positions need to make up for his deficiencies to achieve a balance and that means they'd need to play a different way to their natural game or the traditional style of whatever position they're playing and they need to be on the larger side too. Move on from Savea, or at least stick him on the bench, and I suspect finding the right balance would become a lot easier.
Yeah agree, I've wanted him on the bench for years now. Not because I think he's a bad player, just that he would be an absolute fucking weapon to bring on with 30 to go. But that'll never happen because we don't tend to view our bench as a weapon, we just want to stack it with jacks of all trades to cover every single possible injury scenario. I would love it if we could move away from the idea of someone being put on the bench being "dropped" or "demoted" - the modern game is a 23 man game, SA have understood that for years.
Here's this week's bench:
Samisoni Taukei’aho (38)
George Bower (23)
Pasilio Tosi (11)
Patrick Tuipulotu (55)
Wallace Sititi (14)
Cortez Ratima (17)
Rieko Ioane (86)
Ruben Love (3)Which of these vanilla jacks of all trades shall we fuck off?
Admittedly George might not be the most dynamic, but we've got two of our best three looseheads out injured.
My post wasn't so much about who we've selected this weekend, though an out of sorts Sititi who has never been very effective off the bench doesn't fill me with confidence. Ioane is also out of form and there as injury cover, and Ratima coming on with 15 to go when the test is still in the balance gives me zero confidence. Chucking Love on the wing where he never plays with 10 to go isn't exactly going to win us any matches either. It'll fuck his confidence though!
Point being we will never even consider putting our so called "best" players on the bench as it's just seen as a demotion. For example I would have had Beauden and Ardie as finishers all season, they both have stacks of experience, Beauden in particular has made a career out of making an impact off the bench, and Ardie could just go bananas for 30 minutes. I'd also seriously consider what @reprobate is saying, starting Samisoni then bringing Taylor on for the second 40 to close the match out.
Absolutely none of that will even be considered by our "innovative" coaching team, despite teams like SA showing how effective it can be in the modern game.
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Our clueless dumbass media doesn't help either. If Ardie got put on the bench for that reason, the headline would just be "Ardie dropped for upcoming test!!". Idiots the lot of them.
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@No-Quarter Just a bit of Devil's Advocate for you!
It's not a bad impact bench, though - especially when you look at some of the alternatives and constraints.
I noted people criticising Love getting put on the wing the other week, but it was very clear when the team was selected that he was likely covering wing, so I doubt it was a surprise to him or that he was unprepared to play there.
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12 - Ardie Savea
What could’ve been…..
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
12 - Ardie Savea
What could’ve been…..
The wasteage of not playing Carl Hayman at number 8!
Who was the guy that suggested playing Benny Blair at first five though? Well ahead of the curve of fullbacks that must be moved to first five!
Such a waste!
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@No-Quarter Just a bit of Devil's Advocate for you!
It's not a bad impact bench, though - especially when you look at some of the alternatives and constraints.
I noted people criticising Love getting put on the wing the other week, but it was very clear when the team was selected that he was likely covering wing, so I doubt it was a surprise to him or that he was unprepared to play there.
Nor is it great:
Samisoni I've already mentioned I'd prefer starting.
Bower last man standing, but not an impact player.
Pat T and Tosi yes good.
Sititi has never looked an impact player - maybe he will if they play him wide like they did last year.
Ratima is more a clean passer less an impact halfback than say, Roigard, Fakatava, maybe Hotham could be.
Love, more development than impact I think. I am in favour of that - but having him there with Leicester, Jordan, Tupaea, Barrett all starting means Ioane is a wasted spot which could be another forward.If e.g. Taylor and Savea were coming on with Pat T and Tosi, then we'd be looking at a group that could change a game for the better.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
It's not a bad impact bench, though
Yeah, outside of Bower it looks like a pretty good impact bench.
Bower on top of his game hits harder than most of our front rowers.
(On both sides of the ball)
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
It's not a bad impact bench, though
Yeah, outside of Bower it looks like a pretty good impact bench.
Bower on top of his game hits harder than most of our front rowers.
(On both sides of the ball)
Really? I've always thought of him as decent workhorse style player, and have never thought he's a Lomax or Williams type. I will watch him closely tomorrow.
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@reprobate
I guess Sami T. starting and Codie off the bench is a theory - I'm not convinced about it. When Aumua comes back he might supplant Sami - he's possibly the most dynamic.George just needs to hold up his side of the scrum - agreed.
Pat and Tosi - agreed.
Sititi was world breakout player of the year and can be as dynamic as fuck. He needs to fire, but if he does he's a weapon.
Hotham probably has more impact than Ratima, but is probably broken still. I've got a fair idea why Fakatava isn't really in the frame. Ratima is a better impact option that Finlay! (who in any case needs to pad his bank account by playing for Ta$man in the play-offs - along with Will, Tyrel, Noah and various others. Fuck you all - why don't you save money and just give us the cup!!!!).
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
It's not a bad impact bench, though
Yeah, outside of Bower it looks like a pretty good impact bench.
Bower on top of his game hits harder than most of our front rowers.
(On both sides of the ball)
Really? I've always thought of him as decent workhorse style player, and have never thought he's a Lomax or Williams type. I will watch him closely tomorrow.
He was in brilliant form in the early rounds of SR24, hasn't quite hit those heights again, but his carrying was great. Maybe bench prop will bring that form back?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Nepia No.
I'd like to hear why others think he's not.
p.s. remember those days when Andy Ellis kept getting picked?
Why would anyone show their cards if you're not showing yours?
I prefer not to TBH, although he did have a few good games eventually. He also got picked a lot less than Piri and Jimmy. In all honesty I'd take him over the ginga, actually not 2008 version, I'd prefer the ABs play with 14 than either.
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@Nepia Andy was crucial in winning us a world cup in the end.
Now there's heathens who criticize Sir Richie's book as boring - and they can't complain if they burn in hell for that - but, he singles out Andy for special praise for his calmness under pressure. And Andy was the man who kicked the ball out for the final play and so arguably won us the cup!
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe II:
@Nepia Andy was crucial in winning us a world cup in the end.
Now there's heathens who criticize Sir Richie's book as boring - and they can't complain if they burn in hell for that - but, he singles out Andy for special praise for his calmness under pressure. And Andy was the man who kicked the ball out for the final play and so arguably won us the cup!
Cantabs backing other Cantabs, who would have thought it? Piri was crucial in getting us the chance to win the RWC. Also, I said he had a few good games eventually, that being one of them. I think I even stopped calling him Angela by then.
