All Blacks 2025
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
Easy to say in hindsight. Hansen was never going to drop his captain and I'm not sure that a new coach in 2017 would have done so either
The signs were definitely there that he was cooked though. It's not like he suddenly just hit a wall at RWC 19
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean What Squire went through was nothing to do with the coaches, and is not for a forum like this.
Yeah, best not to be shared around with what he was going through.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Im talking about the end of 2016.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
Was it? Even though past his best who would've replaced him?
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Hmmm, for some reason I felt he was in decline in 2015. Not saying I don't believe you, my recollection of him was just different.
I remember him starting to look a bit clunky with his ball handling particularly in the air , but didn’t think it had reached the point where his position was under threat .
For me , Jerome was the most underrated loosie in that trio at the time, probably became more appreciated once he was gone .
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@kiwiinmelb the balance of a loose trio is a key part too, that trio had it all.
Brains, engine, brutality, power, pace, skills, versatile...
As many have said, as good as Ardie is, his presence, especially when at 8 impacts our ability to have a balanced loose.trio.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
fits our 6 needs better though I suspect. And a ball carrier.
god what we wouldn't give for a Victor Vito now.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
Fifita was better with the ball in hand than any of them but for some reason was shunted into lock for the Canes. Probably so Brad Shields could rack up more games before going to play for England.
Publicly saying he didn’t like playing lock did him absolutely no favours either.
That is Super and even NPC rugby for you. Fast and loose so move your big physical guys into lock and play small fast hybrid 7s in the loose forwards.
It is probably a similar issue for Naitoa Ah Kuoi, Caleb Delaney, Dominic Gardiner, now even Oliver Haig and possibly Will Stoddard in the future.
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I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
Yes he is listed as 1.98 m tall and seems more solid to me than Ah Kuoi. Plus he is only 23.
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Followed Josh Beehre’s career since he was at Whangarei Boys for me he’s a lock not a 6 , he would need to play a full season at 6 in the Npc and rock it big time
Cam Christie and Tristyn Cook imo are better options for the Blues moving forward ,Cook is a dynamic player not to mention a superb line out forward -
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
Can we see if we can get him in the Troy Flavell mould ? much more raw potential.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
Can we see if we can get him in the Troy Flavell mould ? much more raw potential.
And a YC possibility each game…..
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
Can we see if we can get him in the Troy Flavell mould ? much more raw potential.
And a YC possibility each game…..
I meant more the good stuff.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
Can we see if we can get him in the Troy Flavell mould ? much more raw potential.
And a YC possibility each game…..
I meant more the good stuff.
The Troy Flavell style grub doesn't really exist in NZ rugby anymore
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
Can we see if we can get him in the Troy Flavell mould ? much more raw potential.
He's no where near as fast as Flavell was.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Beehre is a genuine 6/lock option in the Jono Gibbes mould. Has good physicality too.
Can we see if we can get him in the Troy Flavell mould ? much more raw potential.
And a YC possibility each game…..
TBF to Troy, most of his yellow cards today would probably be red cards.
