Bokke vs Ireland
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@pakman you missed the boks dismantling the Irish scrum like a sociopathic schoolboy pulling the wings and legs off bugs.
Thought it would be right up your alley.
You’re bang on about the crazy bench gamble the Irish took. Which made me think this has been coming for so long.
Somehow Porter (and to a lesser extent Furlong) have been allowed to scrum illegally and play bullshit Bill Young games for almost a decade.
Which in turn allowed them to spend more time conditioning themselves to get about the field so they could hit more rucks, make more tackles and most egregiously: do that twinkle toes bullshit that brought them both so much empty praise from the cheerleading chorus pretending to be the Irish rugby press.
It also made it possible for Ireland to field JvdF and not one but two undersized but agile hookers.
This brazen but hugely successful long con - that both Porter & Furlong were Herculean scrummagers - made the Irish intricate multiphase game possible (to say nothing of how it improved their defence.)
Similarly, their game has depended on a cynical approach to the breakdown that amounts to daring the ref to make decisions he doesn’t want to make. Once (if) you find his limit, ride it all game long. I admire this so much I’ve adopted it for the jnr teams I coach.
Until Saturday, no ref had called the Irish bluff at both the scrum and the breakdown in a single game. In the QF Porter was for the first time in the tournament fairly reffed, and their breakdown bullshit became a moot point because Cane led the ABs to dominate the breakdown.
And yet, it’s taken another two years for a ref to apply the laws to Ireland.
The big question is whether this game will have a lasting impact on how Porter & co are reffed so that Leinster & Ireland will from now on have to select bigger hookers, proper locks and go 6-2 on the bench in order to stay competitive or whether refs will simply resume business as usual.
As with the Lood case where refs have continued to ignore leading with the shoulder where impact is not high, I am not holding my breath.
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@Smuts said in Bokke vs Ireland:
@pakman you missed the boks dismantling the Irish scrum like a sociopathic schoolboy pulling the wings and legs off bugs.
Thought it would be right up your alley.
Even I can only watch so much flogging of a dead Irish horse!
You’re bang on about the crazy bench gamble the Irish took. Which made me think this has been coming for so long.
Yep. ABs made a not dissimilar mistake in Chicago in 2016.
Somehow Porter (and to a lesser extent Furlong) have been allowed to scrum illegally and play bullshit Bill Young games for almost a decade.
Furlong has always been a holding option. Porter seems toothless when scrummaging legally but is effective when allowed to angle in under TH's chest.
Which in turn allowed them to spend more time conditioning themselves to get about the field so they could hit more rucks, make more tackles and most egregiously: do that twinkle toes bullshit that brought them both so much empty praise from the cheerleading chorus pretending to be the Irish rugby press.
It also made it possible for Ireland to field JvdF and not one but two undersized but agile hookers.
I don't believe JvdF makes a huge difference, as Kolisi isn't huge, but the first half did make me wonder how good Sheehan is at scrum time.
I think people overstate how much a good scrum is just down to props. Hooker is also very key, and Argentinians used to consider more important than LH. TH lock absolutely crucial, and LH becomes very key if down to seven men.
On the importance of the hooker front, it was noticeable in Boks 2 that ABs started to push Boks back when McAlister replaced Taukei'aho. Mind you, at that stage we had three locks in scrum and RG had played 50 minutes, which is long for him!
This brazen but hugely successful long con - that both Porter & Furlong were Herculean scrummagers - made the Irish intricate multiphase game possible (to say nothing of how it improved their defence.)
That said, the Bok THs are prone to driving up and over. It would have been interesting to see an aerial view of the scrums.
Similarly, their game has depended on a cynical approach to the breakdown that amounts to daring the ref to make decisions he doesn’t want to make. Once (if) you find his limit, ride it all game long. I admire this so much I’ve adopted it for the jnr teams I coach.
That is very true.
Until Saturday, no ref had called the Irish bluff at both the scrum and the breakdown in a single game. In the QF Porter was for the first time in the tournament fairly reffed, and their breakdown bullshit became a moot point because Cane led the ABs to dominate the breakdown.
Spot on.
And yet, it’s taken another two years for a ref to apply the laws to Ireland.
The big question is whether this game will have a lasting impact on how Porter & co are reffed so that Leinster & Ireland will from now on have to select bigger hookers, proper locks and go 6-2 on the bench in order to stay competitive or whether refs will simply resume business as usual.
The success of the Boks scrum ought to focus coaches' minds on the crucial importance of the TH lock, and the need for three proper locks in the 23. Ireland really missing Joe McCarthy, and would have done much better with Henderson on the bench.
As with the Lood case where refs have continued to ignore leading with the shoulder where impact is not high, I am not holding my breath.
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'Whisper it, but the Wallabies could out-scrum the British and Irish Lions this summer'
If they get their selection right, and see Andrew Porter's driving angle penalised, the Wallabies could turn a traditional weakness into their trump card.
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@pakman said in Bokke vs Ireland:
I don't believe JvdF makes a huge difference, as Kolisi isn't huge, but the first half did make me wonder how good Sheehan is at scrum time.
I think people overstate how much a good scrum is just down to props. Hooker is also very key, and Argentinians used to consider more important than LH. TH lock absolutely crucial, and LH becomes very key if down to seven men.
On the importance of the hooker front, it was noticeable in Boks 2 that ABs started to push Boks back when McAlister replaced Taukei'aho. Mind you, at that stage we had three locks in scrum and RG had played 50 minutes, which is long for him!
I agree that the unwashed punditry generally overemphasize individual props when discussing scrum performance. All 8 have a role to play, especially if like Ireland your props are weak as Yank piss.
My point re JvdF & the Irish hookers is that they’re luxuries that can only be accommodated because the Irish front row has not been properly policed. If they start to be then relatively mobile Irish props would start practicing their throwing and JvdF should, at least for matches involving SA, NZ & France, expect to find himself riding the pine to allow a bigger body to man the pumps early doors.
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He’s not wrong even if it does sound like sour grapes
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@MiketheSnow said in Bokke vs Ireland:
He’s not wrong
What is totally absurd is when the ref calls for a scrum after crooked line-out throw.
And the halfback feed to scrum is even more crooked!!!
And gets away with it! -
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@MiketheSnow referees finally handing out cards in the manner Irish fans have been demanding. They must be thrilled.
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That is possibly the best stat i've seen all season.
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@Smuts said in Bokke vs Ireland:
@pakman said in Bokke vs Ireland:
I don't believe JvdF makes a huge difference, as Kolisi isn't huge, but the first half did make me wonder how good Sheehan is at scrum time.
I think people overstate how much a good scrum is just down to props. Hooker is also very key, and Argentinians used to consider more important than LH. TH lock absolutely crucial, and LH becomes very key if down to seven men.
On the importance of the hooker front, it was noticeable in Boks 2 that ABs started to push Boks back when McAlister replaced Taukei'aho. Mind you, at that stage we had three locks in scrum and RG had played 50 minutes, which is long for him!
I agree that the unwashed punditry generally overemphasize individual props when discussing scrum performance. All 8 have a role to play, especially if like Ireland your props are weak as Yank piss.
My point re JvdF & the Irish hookers is that they’re luxuries that can only be accommodated because the Irish front row has not been properly policed. If they start to be then relatively mobile Irish props would start practicing their throwing and JvdF should, at least for matches involving SA, NZ & France, expect to find himself riding the pine to allow a bigger body to man the pumps early doors.
You'll be regretting that post soon!
Irish analysis:
The failure to pick two TH locks in 23 is identified, which hugely amplified the impact of Ryan committing hari kari.
Sheehan fingered as the weaker of the two Irish hookers, and the combination with Porter a weakness.
Boks took full advantage, although first scrum was probably illegal by Marx and Du Toit.
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@pakman I saw this - no surprise that Jackman talks sense about their scrum. He’s an outlier who’s been saying most of the things he said in the video since at least before the last World Cup.
Expect he’ll remain a Cassandra until/unless refs police the Irish scrum even in games where the other pack doesn’t have the sort of dominance that makes their chicanery impossible to ignore.
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Full Judgement Reveals Surprise Detail In James Ryan Red Card Fallout | Balls.ie
James Ryan’s disciplinary report reveals the Ireland lock did not apologise to Malcolm Marx after his red card against South Africa at the Aviva Stadium.
