All Blacks 2024
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Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
i dont feel he's done much of anything to build for the future, largely his selections have fallen on the "experience" side of the fence ...we've also lost the freedom cup and RC
what was the pass mark?
i feel at the start of the season i was thinking we would either
a ) all change, squad picked on form or potential, might win some, might lose some....but we start developing for the future
b ) safe selections but new game plan, one thing at a time (might be the safest best to get results)
c ) new blood but trying to implement the old attack from anywhere game plan betterI could have understood all three approaches
but i feel like what we've got is by and large
d ) lots of the same people doing a lot of the same things we've seen before...and still not winning
which seems like the worst of all worlds
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
Has it been the success we all dreamed of? Of course not, and Razor would tell you that. I think Razor would even admit to making a few mistakes, but this year has been fine margins.
If you look through the first year of most RWC cycles, as much as working out your new talent, it is also often about working out who isn't up to the task either... and I think we'd be surprised that they probably have developed some fairly strong opinions.
They've gone with the approach of working out which of the current guys can fit the system first, which is conservative, but it could yet be proven the right one. Easier to bring fresh talent into a side which knows what it is doing, then one trying to find its identity. If I was to guess, I think the coaches are probably well aware that there is loads of talent u23, so they want to ensure there is an established spine so that they can just drop these guys in - but doing it all at once is very risky.
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It's a comment on the lowering of standards. NZ fans/media have never been as forgiving as they are right now
Notice how many times summaries of the season just leave off the Argentina game? We shouldn't be losing to them in NZ and definitely should be conceding 38 points to them
Arrogant? Yes. But that pressure is what drove standards for decade after decade.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
It's a comment on the lowering of standards. NZ fans/media have never been as forgiving as they are right now
The AB's are arguably lucky, but also weakened by, that drop-off in the wider care factor...
@Donsteppa said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
It's a comment on the lowering of standards. NZ fans/media have never been as forgiving as they are right now
The AB's are arguably lucky, but also weakened by, that drop-off in the wider care factor...
Yeah, short term everyone (players, coaches, administrators) are more secure in their jobs. Longer term I think it does damage
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@MiketheSnow Will Jordan at 14. Tyrel Lomax at TH.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow Will Jordan at 14. Tyrel Lomax at TH.
Possibly
It would depend on the make up of the front and back threes
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow Will Jordan at 14. Tyrel Lomax at TH.
Possibly
It would depend on the make up of the front and back threes
@MiketheSnow Lomax is nailed on for TH. He’s the only guy this season to get the better of Ox Nche (who is the premier world LH) and nails his core roles around the field and then some.
Jordan - you can’t leave him out. His strike rate is ludicrous. Toss up with Penaud or Arendse for me.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Realistically
Zero
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Realistically
Zero
Caleb Clarke and Will Jordan would be options.
Ardie Savea…..a few years ago
Beauden Barrett…..a few more years ago
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Realistically
Zero
Caleb Clarke and Will Jordan would be options.
Ardie Savea…..a few years ago
Beauden Barrett…..a few more years ago
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 Why do people always ignore the props
Cos with Bart and Red Beard gone and @NTA too biased against NZ I have no idea if they’re any good or not
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 Why do people always ignore the props
Cos with Bart and Red Beard gone and @NTA too biased against NZ I have no idea if they’re any good or not
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 Why do people always ignore the props
I didn't
There are some very good props up our way
Lomax will need to be firing on all cylinders to come away with his World XV place come December
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Realistically
Zero
Caleb Clarke and Will Jordan would be options.
Ardie Savea…..a few years ago
Beauden Barrett…..a few more years ago
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Realistically
Zero
Caleb Clarke and Will Jordan would be options.
Ardie Savea…..a few years ago
Beauden Barrett…..a few more years ago
Jordan possibly if he had the right centre inside him
We'll know soon enough
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 Why do people always ignore the props
Cos with Bart and Red Beard gone and @NTA too biased against NZ I have no idea if they’re any good or not
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@NTA Nick, what's your opinion on the lost Wallaby talent that is Tyrel Lomax?
Good prop. Wish he was still on this side of the ditch. I think he'd go better with our locks than yours.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@NTA Nick, what's your opinion on the lost Wallaby talent that is Tyrel Lomax?
Good prop. Wish he was still on this side of the ditch. I think he'd go better with our locks than yours.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@NTA Nick, what's your opinion on the lost Wallaby talent that is Tyrel Lomax?
Good prop. Wish he was still on this side of the ditch. I think he'd go better with our locks than yours.
@NTA said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@NTA Nick, what's your opinion on the lost Wallaby talent that is Tyrel Lomax?
Good prop. Wish he was still on this side of the ditch. I think he'd go better with our locks than yours.
He went all right against Ox and the Boks pack with Vaa'i behind him, apart from a couple of scrums. And ABs had upper hand by end of H1 in Cape Town. Even better against England with Paddy T.
LSL is good scrummaging LH lock. Is Frost top dog of the local TH locks?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
Has it been the success we all dreamed of? Of course not, and Razor would tell you that. I think Razor would even admit to making a few mistakes, but this year has been fine margins.
If you look through the first year of most RWC cycles, as much as working out your new talent, it is also often about working out who isn't up to the task either... and I think we'd be surprised that they probably have developed some fairly strong opinions.
They've gone with the approach of working out which of the current guys can fit the system first, which is conservative, but it could yet be proven the right one. Easier to bring fresh talent into a side which knows what it is doing, then one trying to find its identity. If I was to guess, I think the coaches are probably well aware that there is loads of talent u23, so they want to ensure there is an established spine so that they can just drop these guys in - but doing it all at once is very risky.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
but this year has been fine margins.
Shipping 20-25 points in the second half on a regular basis isn't fine margins, it really isn't.
They've gone with the approach of working out which of the current guys can fit the system first, which is conservative, but it could yet be proven the right one. Easier to bring fresh talent into a side which knows what it is doing, then one trying to find its identity.
Not sure that makes sense. Why would you build a system and then use people unlikely to be around when the system is fully in place? Wouldn't a coach be better to develop a system which make the best use of his player pool and likely lifespan?
I think the coaches are probably well aware that there is loads of talent u23, so they want to ensure there is an established spine so that they can just drop these guys in - but doing it all at once is very risky.
There is an established spine and has been since England 1. And most of the successful new players haven't been dropped in, they've been picked due to injury and the likes of Proctor being given the barest minimum of game time. That's the biggest downside for me this year has been missed opportunities to develop players - just hope things change on the EOYT.
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Things I'll be looking out for.
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Develop the newer players. It's all very well keeping TJP and BB in the squad for experience, but not at the expense of game time for some of the tyros. Injury has been Robertson's best selector in may ways. Expected much more structure on the development side.
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Midfield isn't working well enough. Reiko seems to have stopped developing and JB is a solid journeyman only - OK leading up to RWC 2023 but need to aim a little higher.
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On field leadership. Still not great, but some encouraging signs. Be good to see SB growing further into the role in his first year. and the likes of Vaa'i continuing to grow in stature
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Headspace and focus has gone backwards. We may have lost players like Smith and BBBR but filling those positions hasn't been a issue (e.g Vaa'I). For me this is the real problem that needs to be fixed. We are blowing leads and look hesitant when opportunities arise.
TBH, at this stage I think it's how the team performs and develops which is more important than results. I'll accept a couple of losses as long as they aren't like the dross we saw in much of the RC this year.
Def want to win, but a hard-fought loss against the top NH teams away from home would be real progress and help address a lot of concerns. If we come back with the likes of Sititi and Vaa'i in the forwards and Clarke and Jordan in the backs being seen as core, world-class players, that'd be real progress.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
Things I'll be looking out for.
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Develop the newer players. It's all very well keeping TJP and BB in the squad for experience, but not at the expense of game time for some of the tyros. Injury has been Robertson's best selector in may ways. Expected much more structure on the development side.
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Midfield isn't working well enough. Reiko seems to have stopped developing and JB is a solid journeyman only - OK leading up to RWC 2023 but need to aim a little higher.
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On field leadership. Still not great, but some encouraging signs. Be good to see SB growing further into the role in his first year. and the likes of Vaa'i continuing to grow in stature
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Headspace and focus has gone backwards. We may have lost players like Smith and BBBR but filling those positions hasn't been a issue (e.g Vaa'I). For me this is the real problem that needs to be fixed. We are blowing leads and look hesitant when opportunities arise.
TBH, at this stage I think it's how the team performs and develops which is more important than results. I'll accept a couple of losses as long as they aren't like the dross we saw in much of the RC this year.
Def want to win, but a hard-fought loss against the top NH teams away from home would be real progress and help address a lot of concerns. If we come back with the likes of Sititi and Vaa'i in the forwards and Clarke and Jordan in the backs being seen as core, world-class players, that'd be real progress.
Agree on 1 and most of 2.
Not sure how 3 can be promising when your argument for 4 is happening. I think it is precisely on-field leadership that is costing us in the late stages of games. -
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
Things I'll be looking out for.
-
Develop the newer players. It's all very well keeping TJP and BB in the squad for experience, but not at the expense of game time for some of the tyros. Injury has been Robertson's best selector in may ways. Expected much more structure on the development side.
-
Midfield isn't working well enough. Reiko seems to have stopped developing and JB is a solid journeyman only - OK leading up to RWC 2023 but need to aim a little higher.
-
On field leadership. Still not great, but some encouraging signs. Be good to see SB growing further into the role in his first year. and the likes of Vaa'i continuing to grow in stature
-
Headspace and focus has gone backwards. We may have lost players like Smith and BBBR but filling those positions hasn't been a issue (e.g Vaa'I). For me this is the real problem that needs to be fixed. We are blowing leads and look hesitant when opportunities arise.
TBH, at this stage I think it's how the team performs and develops which is more important than results. I'll accept a couple of losses as long as they aren't like the dross we saw in much of the RC this year.
Def want to win, but a hard-fought loss against the top NH teams away from home would be real progress and help address a lot of concerns. If we come back with the likes of Sititi and Vaa'i in the forwards and Clarke and Jordan in the backs being seen as core, world-class players, that'd be real progress.
Agree on 1 and most of 2.
Not sure how 3 can be promising when your argument for 4 is happening. I think it is precisely on-field leadership that is costing us in the late stages of games.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Not sure how 3 can be promising when your argument for 4 is happening.
Two different but related things. Leadership is top down, focus (e.g. discipline) is everyone.
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