All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson
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This was the playing 15 at the end of the match (inlcding Savea and Frizell each playing 80 for the first time in months):
Smith
Milner-Skudder
Goodhue
ALB
McKenzie
Mo'uga
TTT
L Whitelock
Savea
Frizell
S Whitelock
S Barrett
Tu'ungafasi
Harris
Perry@rapido said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
This was the playing 15 at the end of the match (inlcding Savea and Frizell each playing 80 for the first time in months):
Smith
Milner-Skudder
Goodhue
ALB
McKenzie
Mo'uga
TTT
L Whitelock
Savea
Frizell
S Whitelock
S Barrett
Tu'ungafasi
Harris
PerryImpressed with Scotty Barrett, Ardie and Frizzell putting in big 80 minute performances. They all stepped up and finished strongly.
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At about the 60 minute mark. My eyes were telling me that NZ would have been better off slowing this game down, working some set pieces etc if they could.
My mind was telling me. Don't be fooloed. Remember recent history between these 2 teams. This is when it starts to change.
On the scoreboard I guess it did finally, but only in the last 10 mins? Argentina ended up dominating the second half possesion and territory stats - both by about 66-67%.
Was quite a strange game. It will be interesting to see what part the 1014 show choose to analyse as there were quite a few anomolies in this game.
For a while I've thought the "superior fitness" explanantion is just lazy analysis.
I do think the early subs in the first 10 minutes delayed the NZ bench pulling the game away.
I also think we had an extremely inexperienced 15 out on the field for most of the last 20 minutes (very valuable).@rapido said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
I do think the early subs in the first 10 minutes delayed the NZ bench pulling the game away.
I also think we had an extremely inexperienced 15 out on the field for most of the last 20 minutes (very valuable).Yep losing Laumape and BBBR so early certainly takes a bit of punch out of our bench, and with so few experienced heads out there at the 70 min mark, I think they pulled through well
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
I really want Alaimalo in the AB setup ASAP. He's very classy and his game looks well suited to test footy. I hope they don't persist with NMS for much longer.
FABGB
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
I really want Alaimalo in the AB setup ASAP. He's very classy and his game looks well suited to test footy. I hope they don't persist with NMS for much longer.
FABGB
Fark anyone would be more effective than NMS right now. Jules at least still had a bit of power even if his pace was gone.
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Pat T called into ABs with BBBR and Laumape ruled out of next weeks match
@taniwharugby Well I used to have high hopes for this guy but he has been disappointing. Hopefully he pulls his finger out of his ass and starts realizing his potential.
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pretty good game i thought. frizz wylie eh? easily the best (and maybe the only?) 80 minutes i've seen from him. i used to hate the shitty pop pass tactic from e.g. franks to romano - the ball skills weren't quite there, nor the impact running - but when we start doing that well, and to frizzell (or akira etc), then... well, tough to stop. frizzell did fade out for a long period after starting on fire, but came back towards the end well too. good stuff.
i think the comments here are pretty harsh on NMS. i personally would not have picked him - would prefer to see him turn it on at the lower level first - but he's always been a stepper and offloader - he's simply never been a fast guy. i'd be surprised if they would play him if he tested heaps slower than previous. he may come back, he may not - but the reason for whichever way that goes will be that first step of his - a really fast change of direction and burst of acceleration, not his speed in a run to the line, which has always been shit by ab winger standards.
mo'unga looked nervous - he's not a guy who misses touch. still did a lot of good stuff though, and his flat passing game gives guys outside him space. he's a keeper, and will be better for the experience.
tj perenara - such a good all round footy player, but jeez i miss aaron smith when tj plays. the speed of ruck delivery is just not the same.
midfielders really good, goodhue looks like he's been there forever. naholo and ben smith okay, but not their best days out. mckenzie is great. people forget how little 10 he has actually played so far, he's come a long way already - but for some reason he gets labelled as a 'never gonna be good enough' for his shit errors, while someone like jordie gets a free pass. the way he keeps himself in play, and has multiple involvements in attacking movements is bloody great to watch.
harris can't throw right now, which unfortunately is just not acceptable - in general - but definitely not in the closing stages of test matches. when we get a close game, he could well lose it for us. props good. locks good. loosies good.
for the argies... i like to think i can be objective enough to appreciate good play by the opposition - most of the time i'm probably kidding myself a bit, but the argie winger turning us inside out was a thing of real beauty. they're the new france. big forwards, small backs playing a high skill, high risk game. when it comes off, it's bloody hard to stop and great to watch, good luck to them. they'l be disappointed with the scrum, but i think they were missing a prop? would also like to see Isa back - has he been injured or something? as long as they keep the filth to a minimum they are one of the best teams to watch i reckon. -
pretty good game i thought. frizz wylie eh? easily the best (and maybe the only?) 80 minutes i've seen from him. i used to hate the shitty pop pass tactic from e.g. franks to romano - the ball skills weren't quite there, nor the impact running - but when we start doing that well, and to frizzell (or akira etc), then... well, tough to stop. frizzell did fade out for a long period after starting on fire, but came back towards the end well too. good stuff.
i think the comments here are pretty harsh on NMS. i personally would not have picked him - would prefer to see him turn it on at the lower level first - but he's always been a stepper and offloader - he's simply never been a fast guy. i'd be surprised if they would play him if he tested heaps slower than previous. he may come back, he may not - but the reason for whichever way that goes will be that first step of his - a really fast change of direction and burst of acceleration, not his speed in a run to the line, which has always been shit by ab winger standards.
mo'unga looked nervous - he's not a guy who misses touch. still did a lot of good stuff though, and his flat passing game gives guys outside him space. he's a keeper, and will be better for the experience.
tj perenara - such a good all round footy player, but jeez i miss aaron smith when tj plays. the speed of ruck delivery is just not the same.
midfielders really good, goodhue looks like he's been there forever. naholo and ben smith okay, but not their best days out. mckenzie is great. people forget how little 10 he has actually played so far, he's come a long way already - but for some reason he gets labelled as a 'never gonna be good enough' for his shit errors, while someone like jordie gets a free pass. the way he keeps himself in play, and has multiple involvements in attacking movements is bloody great to watch.
harris can't throw right now, which unfortunately is just not acceptable - in general - but definitely not in the closing stages of test matches. when we get a close game, he could well lose it for us. props good. locks good. loosies good.
for the argies... i like to think i can be objective enough to appreciate good play by the opposition - most of the time i'm probably kidding myself a bit, but the argie winger turning us inside out was a thing of real beauty. they're the new france. big forwards, small backs playing a high skill, high risk game. when it comes off, it's bloody hard to stop and great to watch, good luck to them. they'l be disappointed with the scrum, but i think they were missing a prop? would also like to see Isa back - has he been injured or something? as long as they keep the filth to a minimum they are one of the best teams to watch i reckon.@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
i think the comments here are pretty harsh on NMS.
Some are. One thing to remember about his try was he basically had to stop to gather in the pass from Cody. The cover from Argentina was at full pace.
That doesn't excuse him coming off his wing leaving his man unmarked to score a try.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
i think the comments here are pretty harsh on NMS.
Some are. One thing to remember about his try was he basically had to stop to gather in the pass from Cody. The cover from Argentina was at full pace.
That doesn't excuse him coming off his wing leaving his man unmarked to score a try.
@antipodean absolutely, that was a shocker.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
i think the comments here are pretty harsh on NMS.
Some are. One thing to remember about his try was he basically had to stop to gather in the pass from Cody. The cover from Argentina was at full pace.
That doesn't excuse him coming off his wing leaving his man unmarked to score a try.
@antipodean yep, good observation but speed is speed and wingers need speed ( Craig Green being the exception that makes the rule
)edit, more of a reply to reprobate's comment
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@stargazer tackle stats are a bit mis leading, Naholo was out of position a couple of times on Argie breaks, and others tracking back to cover missed tackles that he should have been there to make (or miss)
Sure I saw Frizzell miss one too
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@stargazer tackle stats are a bit mis leading, Naholo was out of position a couple of times on Argie breaks, and others tracking back to cover missed tackles that he should have been there to make (or miss)
Sure I saw Frizzell miss one too
Frizzell came out of the line at 76 minutes and let full back through gap and to skin Ritchie Mo.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@stargazer tackle stats are a bit mis leading, Naholo was out of position a couple of times on Argie breaks, and others tracking back to cover missed tackles that he should have been there to make (or miss)
Sure I saw Frizzell miss one too
Frizzell came out of the line at 76 minutes and let full back through gap and to skin Ritchie Mo.
@pakman big difference to doing that in basically your first test after 76 minutes when you are a forward out wide, as opposed to doing it on the wing when the guy you're lining up has already been tackled before you get there and you're in your natural position with plenty of time to scan, at the start of the match.
@Crucial that was a shockingly poor decision by a guy we should expect much more of. There's no good explanation for such awful defence.
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@pakman big difference to doing that in basically your first test after 76 minutes when you are a forward out wide, as opposed to doing it on the wing when the guy you're lining up has already been tackled before you get there and you're in your natural position with plenty of time to scan, at the start of the match.
@Crucial that was a shockingly poor decision by a guy we should expect much more of. There's no good explanation for such awful defence.
@bones said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@pakman big difference to doing that in basically your first test after 76 minutes when you are a forward out wide, as opposed to doing it on the wing when the guy you're lining up has already been tackled before you get there and you're in your natural position with plenty of time to scan, at the start of the match.
@Crucial that was a shockingly poor decision by a guy we should expect much more of. There's no good explanation for such awful defence.
I think this incident is growing it's own set of 'alternate facts'. NMS made contact with the ball carrier first, he didn't arrive after a tackle was already being made. In fact if it wasn't for a desperate no look pass out of contact that worked it would have been a great piece of defence as they would have affected a two on one situation with either a spilt ball or a turnover chance The margin was miniscule and worth the risk of the pass being made as he had a sweeper already in place and more coming with plenty of time to come across.
From the Argies POV the ball carrier took a chance in getting the ball away and it worked out due to the brilliance of the winger.
If anything, NMS made a split second decision to shut down the movement before he got in a one on one that he probably wouldn't have been able to defend anyway. Worse still if Frizell hadn't made it in time (and he was slightly behind NMS in timing) there was a big risk that NMS could have been in a two on one.
You are traditionally taught as a winger to trust your inside defenders and stay out but there are times when you can tell the inside won't quite make it and your best bet is to try and close things down yourself because you will end up ineffective.
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@bones said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@pakman big difference to doing that in basically your first test after 76 minutes when you are a forward out wide, as opposed to doing it on the wing when the guy you're lining up has already been tackled before you get there and you're in your natural position with plenty of time to scan, at the start of the match.
@Crucial that was a shockingly poor decision by a guy we should expect much more of. There's no good explanation for such awful defence.
I think this incident is growing it's own set of 'alternate facts'. NMS made contact with the ball carrier first, he didn't arrive after a tackle was already being made. In fact if it wasn't for a desperate no look pass out of contact that worked it would have been a great piece of defence as they would have affected a two on one situation with either a spilt ball or a turnover chance The margin was miniscule and worth the risk of the pass being made as he had a sweeper already in place and more coming with plenty of time to come across.
From the Argies POV the ball carrier took a chance in getting the ball away and it worked out due to the brilliance of the winger.
If anything, NMS made a split second decision to shut down the movement before he got in a one on one that he probably wouldn't have been able to defend anyway. Worse still if Frizell hadn't made it in time (and he was slightly behind NMS in timing) there was a big risk that NMS could have been in a two on one.
You are traditionally taught as a winger to trust your inside defenders and stay out but there are times when you can tell the inside won't quite make it and your best bet is to try and close things down yourself because you will end up ineffective.
@crucial everything you say is true, but none of it applies to that particular situation - he should have stayed out, the inside man was covered and he created them an overlap and hence a try. As I said previously I think a lot of the criticism is rubbish, but not that one.
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It's the little things with Goodhue that makes him so classy. Last night for example, in the first half the ABs decided to run the ball out from inside the 22. They looked like they were in a spot of trouble, but Goodhue straightened before receiving the ball, went into contact and recycled the ball efficiently allowing the ABs to clear. Not a big deal to the casual observer, but lots of players would have held the outside line and risked being isolated or forced into touch.
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
It's the little things with Goodhue that makes him so classy. Last night for example, in the first half the ABs decided to run the ball out from inside the 22. They looked like they were in a spot of trouble, but Goodhue straightened before receiving the ball, went into contact and recycled the ball efficiently allowing the ABs to clear. Not a big deal to the casual observer, but lots of players would have held the outside line and risked being isolated or forced into touch.
My 88 year old dad noticed that straightening. Reminiscent of his old favourite, Johnny Smith, the original wonderful AB centre.
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@crucial everything you say is true, but none of it applies to that particular situation - he should have stayed out, the inside man was covered and he created them an overlap and hence a try. As I said previously I think a lot of the criticism is rubbish, but not that one.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@crucial everything you say is true, but none of it applies to that particular situation - he should have stayed out, the inside man was covered and he created them an overlap and hence a try. As I said previously I think a lot of the criticism is rubbish, but not that one.
Disagree.
You say 'should have' and that is analysis based on outcome rather than situation.
IMO there was a higher chance of the pass being disrupted and a turnover created than an overlap being used.
Argies pushed the pass and it worked out for them.
There is a big assumption from those criticising NMS' decision that he would have been able to tackle the opposite winger who would have taken the ball at speed and, as he showed, is evasive and strong. He made two other ABs look like complete numpties on his way to the line. It could have been three. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@crucial everything you say is true, but none of it applies to that particular situation - he should have stayed out, the inside man was covered and he created them an overlap and hence a try. As I said previously I think a lot of the criticism is rubbish, but not that one.
Disagree.
You say 'should have' and that is analysis based on outcome rather than situation.
IMO there was a higher chance of the pass being disrupted and a turnover created than an overlap being used.
Argies pushed the pass and it worked out for them.
There is a big assumption from those criticising NMS' decision that he would have been able to tackle the opposite winger who would have taken the ball at speed and, as he showed, is evasive and strong. He made two other ABs look like complete numpties on his way to the line. It could have been three.@crucial could have been, instead one made himself look like a numpty all on his own. Didn't even risk the really tough option of defending his opposite one on one with the sideline for help. That would have been outlandish, no winger worth his salt has ever done that before.
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Lots of good efforts from less experienced ABs. One BIG gripe. Missing 25 or so tackles is NOT acceptable.
Frizzell's alignment gaffe is not huge demerit against no other missed tackles.
On comparison with Akira, from what I've read, Frizzell's charging onto balls in midfield is what TWM WANT from Akira. He is a beast from a standing start, but historically bursting onto passes has not been his strong point.
ALB back of the week for me. -
@crucial could have been, instead one made himself look like a numpty all on his own. Didn't even risk the really tough option of defending his opposite one on one with the sideline for help. That would have been outlandish, no winger worth his salt has ever done that before.
@bones said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@crucial could have been, instead one made himself look like a numpty all on his own. Didn't even risk the really tough option of defending his opposite one on one with the sideline for help. That would have been outlandish, no winger worth his salt has ever done that before.
Considering you thought he didn't even beat Frizell to the first tackle I'm not sure how much faith to put in your analysis
My point is that it wasn't nearly as simple as a the schoolboy error it is being made out to be. He went for what he calculated was the best option and was left looking silly by a rushed no look pass in contact that found it's recipient. Watch the ball carrier and he is the one that looks like a panicked newbie.
