All Blacks vs Pumas II
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@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tim Are you kidding. One of my favourite players.
I absolutely do not believe that you ever expressed that sentiment until now.
In 2018, when Steve Hansen, riding Henry's coat tales, selected every player in NZ other than Ioane - was he one of your favourites then? He was just as good. Were you lamenting the selection of awful players like Luke Whitelock, Gareth Evans (fuck me!), and Shannon Frizzel over Akira Ioane?
This was his form then:
His form was irrelevant - because Hansen obviously blackballed him.
He was picked to train with the ABs for the France series in an apprentice role. In one of the Fern's big scoops, we got told at the time he got caught by Hansen sneaking back into the hotel at 2am (and he was drinking with a Ferner earlier in the evening).
And then he never appeared again - not even when Hansen took every man and his dog to Japan.
Must have been @jegga, he’s always hanging with ABs.
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@mn5 No - it was one of those bastards currently plotting to get the next Ranfurly Shield challenge canned!
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@l_n_p looked like he was still in contact with Reiko, so I guess technically he is held, therefore cant go again.
All very split second stuff, but the margins at this level are small.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p looked like he was still in contact with Reiko, so I guess technically he is held, therefore cant go again.
All very split second stuff, but the margins at this level are small.
Agree after checking out the "Rugby Refs" forum :winking_face: . They had a big discussion on the try Caleb Clark set up last year, Refs consensus (certainly not 100% btw) seemed to be Caleb was tackled, should have released, and the resulting try should not have stood. 3:40 onwards in this video.
My bad, sorry Jaco! :thumbs_up: Rieko is held, knee on the ground, for a moment.
Key point for the refs is to reward a tackler releasing in order to get to his feet to contest OR to allow a contest for the ball (i.e. other opposition players are on their feet and in a position to contest). BOTH seem applicable here as Puma 13 was contesting too.
Still learning ...
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p looked like he was still in contact with Reiko, so I guess technically he is held, therefore cant go again.
All very split second stuff, but the margins at this level are small.
Agree after checking out the "Rugby Refs" forum :winking_face: . They had a big discussion on the try Caleb Clark set up last year, Refs consensus (certainly not 100% btw) seemed to be Caleb was tackled, should have released, and the resulting try should not have stood. 3:40 onwards in this video.
My bad, sorry Jaco! :thumbs_up: Rieko is held, knee on the ground, for a moment.
Key point for the refs is to reward a tackler releasing in order to get to his feet to contest OR to allow a contest for the ball (i.e. other opposition players are on their feet and in a position to contest). BOTH seem applicable here as Puma 13 was contesting too.
Still learning ...
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Key point for the refs is to reward a tackler releasing in order to get to his feet to contest OR to allow a contest for the ball (i.e. other opposition players are on their feet and in a position to contest). BOTH seem applicable here as Puma 13 was contesting too.
I couldn't agree more - but they need to err on the side of caution. You go down with a slight hold - assume that your'e tackled. Be really really clear about it. Unfortunately, refs 'sometimes' enforce it randomly, and it's just head scratching. What does 'held' mean anyway these days?
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@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@mn5 No - it was one of those bastards currently plotting to get the next Ranfurly Shield challenge canned!
Everybody outside of your Marlborough Invitational chequebook XV team's region?
@nepia said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@mn5 No - it was one of those bastards currently plotting to get the next Ranfurly Shield challenge canned!
Everybody outside of your Marlborough Invitational chequebook XV team's region?
Look at those Waikato bastards who have taken it on themselves to get covid.
And who is our warm-up game for this supposed Shield Challenge?
Probably planning to infect our whole team!
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@nepia said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@mn5 No - it was one of those bastards currently plotting to get the next Ranfurly Shield challenge canned!
Everybody outside of your Marlborough Invitational chequebook XV team's region?
Look at those Waikato bastards who have taken it on themselves to get covid.
And who is our warm-up game for this supposed Shield Challenge?
Probably planning to infect our whole team!
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@nepia said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@mn5 No - it was one of those bastards currently plotting to get the next Ranfurly Shield challenge canned!
Everybody outside of your Marlborough Invitational chequebook XV team's region?
Look at those Waikato bastards who have taken it on themselves to get covid.
And who is our warm-up game for this supposed Shield Challenge?
Probably planning to infect our whole team!
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@chris-b wtf are you on about? Last I remember Mangatangi was in Counties Manukau and well removed from the Waikato. Kaiaua - Thames Valley?
@arhs said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris-b wtf are you on about? Last I remember Mangatangi was in Counties Manukau and well removed from the Waikato. Kaiaua - Thames Valley?
Really? Mangatangi being in Counties Manukau?
EDIT: You may have been having a joksie, that I didn't pick up on
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From what I saw George bridge made a knock on. He had otherwise had a solid but unspectacular match. 7/10. Would not be surprised to see him named vs SA he is good in the air.
Rieko also made a knock on. He also blew a certain try by not passing to unmarked players. However the try was only on in the first place because of his step and speed. I don’t like Centres who don’t pass. They look like wingers playing centre. Rieko at 11 for me.
@billy-tell said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
From what I saw George bridge made a knock on. He had otherwise had a solid but unspectacular match. 7/10. Would not be surprised to see him named vs SA he is good in the air.
Agreed. He looks safe under the high ball and that goes a long way to defusing South Africa's game.
Rieko also made a knock on. He also blew a certain try by not passing to unmarked players. However the try was only on in the first place because of his step and speed. I don’t like Centres who don’t pass. They look like wingers playing centre. Rieko at 11 for me.
Ignoring when Rieko has created tries with brilliant passes, he made the correct decision on the weekend not to pass to his support as the Argentinian player covered the potential pass.
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Key point for the refs is to reward a tackler releasing in order to get to his feet to contest OR to allow a contest for the ball (i.e. other opposition players are on their feet and in a position to contest). BOTH seem applicable here as Puma 13 was contesting too.
I couldn't agree more - but they need to err on the side of caution. You go down with a slight hold - assume that your'e tackled. Be really really clear about it. Unfortunately, refs 'sometimes' enforce it randomly, and it's just head scratching. What does 'held' mean anyway these days?
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Key point for the refs is to reward a tackler releasing in order to get to his feet to contest OR to allow a contest for the ball (i.e. other opposition players are on their feet and in a position to contest). BOTH seem applicable here as Puma 13 was contesting too.
I couldn't agree more - but they need to err on the side of caution. You go down with a slight hold - assume that your'e tackled. Be really really clear about it. Unfortunately, refs 'sometimes' enforce it randomly, and it's just head scratching. What does 'held' mean anyway these days?
https://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?21994-All-blacks-third-try-tackled-or-not
The refs were debating that too :face_with_tears_of_joy: : because whether Caleb Clark was held was more marginal, and the tackler's grip i.e. held was slipping. They also have to take materiality into account ...
In this example consensus was Caleb was "held" (just) but the ref couldn't see that in real time. As that resulting GREAT try was next phase and appeared clear, it fell outside of TMO protocols (presumably unless the TMO had picked it up independent to the ref, which did not happen).
I don't criticize refs as they all have good and bad days, and occasionally have completely sh*t days just like players do. Peyper is a bit pedantic but consistently consistent, which is about all you can ask.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Key point for the refs is to reward a tackler releasing in order to get to his feet to contest OR to allow a contest for the ball (i.e. other opposition players are on their feet and in a position to contest). BOTH seem applicable here as Puma 13 was contesting too.
I couldn't agree more - but they need to err on the side of caution. You go down with a slight hold - assume that your'e tackled. Be really really clear about it. Unfortunately, refs 'sometimes' enforce it randomly, and it's just head scratching. What does 'held' mean anyway these days?
https://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?21994-All-blacks-third-try-tackled-or-not
The refs were debating that too :face_with_tears_of_joy: : because whether Caleb Clark was held was more marginal, and the tackler's grip i.e. held was slipping. They also have to take materiality into account ...
In this example consensus was Caleb was "held" (just) but the ref couldn't see that in real time. As that resulting GREAT try was next phase and appeared clear, it fell outside of TMO protocols (presumably unless the TMO had picked it up independent to the ref, which did not happen).
I don't criticize refs as they all have good and bad days, and occasionally have completely sh*t days just like players do. Peyper is a bit pedantic but consistently consistent, which is about all you can ask.
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
I don't criticize refs as they all have good and bad days, and occasionally have completely sh*t days just like players do. Peyper is a bit pedantic but consistently consistent, which is about all you can ask.
I will quite happily. There is a difference between a bad decision and a wrong decision. Wrong I can live with, but 'bad' should be called out.
Example recently would be the Jordie RC. In real time, I understand why that's a Red - it looks horrific. But, in slo mo, on replay, with kine-something experts, it's overturned. No problem with either call.
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@chris-b wtf are you on about? Last I remember Mangatangi was in Counties Manukau and well removed from the Waikato. Kaiaua - Thames Valley?
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
I don't criticize refs as they all have good and bad days, and occasionally have completely sh*t days just like players do. Peyper is a bit pedantic but consistently consistent, which is about all you can ask.
I will quite happily. There is a difference between a bad decision and a wrong decision. Wrong I can live with, but 'bad' should be called out.
Example recently would be the Jordie RC. In real time, I understand why that's a Red - it looks horrific. But, in slo mo, on replay, with kine-something experts, it's overturned. No problem with either call.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
I don't criticize refs as they all have good and bad days, and occasionally have completely sh*t days just like players do. Peyper is a bit pedantic but consistently consistent, which is about all you can ask.
I will quite happily. There is a difference between a bad decision and a wrong decision. Wrong I can live with, but 'bad' should be called out.
Example recently would be the Jordie RC. In real time, I understand why that's a Red - it looks horrific. But, in slo mo, on replay, with kine-something experts, it's overturned. No problem with either call.
I think there's a parallel with the card for the tackle by the aussie 6 (Swinton?) this weekend where the ref was going to give a red but was talked down by the TMO. It was shoulder-to-shoulder with a resulting head clash.
Both were essentially a mixture of poor technique plus "shit happens in games". I'd have been okay with a yellow for Jordie given the need to clamp down on all head contact, and it would have been consistent with Swinton, which was far more dangerous tbh.
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
I don’t like Centres who don’t pass. They look like wingers playing centre. Rieko at 11 for me.
I'd probably reframe it as centres who 'can't' pass. He can pass, and often does - in that try buildup he chose not to (you see him look, and hold the ball). That said, he's 24 and learning the position - with 30 test tries under his belt. Remarkable given how long he's been in the environment. I think his passing is a work in progress, but it's getting that knack of finding people in dynamic situations.
I agree, 24 is so young for an international 13. As I remember (Nonu, Tana) every winger who moves infield takes sh*t for a few years because it takes a few years to learn the position?
The fact he's asked to play 13 already tells us that we wants to learn so his attitude is fine.
Definitely prefer ALB as #1 but can see Rieko as a starter at 13 sometime after the next RWC by which time he's 27-28 maybe.
my only real problem with RI now is he's still out best 11, so while he's trying to learn a new position we're calling him back out to the wing every few games to sort shit out
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
I don’t like Centres who don’t pass. They look like wingers playing centre. Rieko at 11 for me.
I'd probably reframe it as centres who 'can't' pass. He can pass, and often does - in that try buildup he chose not to (you see him look, and hold the ball). That said, he's 24 and learning the position - with 30 test tries under his belt. Remarkable given how long he's been in the environment. I think his passing is a work in progress, but it's getting that knack of finding people in dynamic situations.
I agree, 24 is so young for an international 13. As I remember (Nonu, Tana) every winger who moves infield takes sh*t for a few years because it takes a few years to learn the position?
The fact he's asked to play 13 already tells us that we wants to learn so his attitude is fine.
Definitely prefer ALB as #1 but can see Rieko as a starter at 13 sometime after the next RWC by which time he's 27-28 maybe.
my only real problem with RI now is he's still out best 11, so while he's trying to learn a new position we're calling him back out to the wing every few games to sort shit out
Bar the botched try on the weekend where TJ should've scored RI has looked more and more at home at Centre at the top level. I remember watching him at Auckland Grammar at Centre and you could see that he would probably spend some time on the wing such was his pace and propensity to take on the line himself.
I was at the game on the weekend at Suncorp, he does alot of off the ball work as well which is good to see. Constantly talking to his outsides and communicating with Tupaea.
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@chris-b wtf are you on about? Last I remember Mangatangi was in Counties Manukau and well removed from the Waikato. Kaiaua - Thames Valley?
@arhs said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris-b wtf are you on about? Last I remember Mangatangi was in Counties Manukau and well removed from the Waikato. Kaiaua - Thames Valley?
Maramarua in Counties or Hauraki North at Waitakaruru would the closest rugby clubs to where those cases are. Probably more in Counties than Thames Valley.
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@arhs said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris-b wtf are you on about? Last I remember Mangatangi was in Counties Manukau and well removed from the Waikato. Kaiaua - Thames Valley?
You're all mid-North Island swamp dwellers to me!
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@chris-b Spot on there. Hard to tell where Auckland ends now though with Hampton Downs Te Kauwhata and Ohinewai moving on. But Maramarua is swamp land Counties
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@tim said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tim Are you kidding. One of my favourite players.
I absolutely do not believe that you ever expressed that sentiment until now.
In 2018, when Steve Hansen, riding Henry's coat tales, selected every player in NZ other than Ioane - was he one of your favourites then? He was just as good. Were you lamenting the selection of awful players like Luke Whitelock, Gareth Evans (fuck me!), and Shannon Frizzel over Akira Ioane?
This was his form then:
His form was irrelevant - because Hansen obviously blackballed him.
He was picked to train with the ABs for the France series in an apprentice role. In one of the Fern's big scoops, we got told at the time he got caught by Hansen sneaking back into the hotel at 2am (and he was drinking with a Ferner earlier in the evening).
And then he never appeared again - not even when Hansen took every man and his dog to Japan.
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tim Are you kidding. One of my favourite players.
I absolutely do not believe that you ever expressed that sentiment until now.
In 2018, when Steve Hansen, riding Henry's coat tales, selected every player in NZ other than Ioane - was he one of your favourites then? He was just as good. Were you lamenting the selection of awful players like Luke Whitelock, Gareth Evans (fuck me!), and Shannon Frizzel over Akira Ioane?
This was his form then:
His form was irrelevant - because Hansen obviously blackballed him.
He was picked to train with the ABs for the France series in an apprentice role. In one of the Fern's big scoops, we got told at the time he got caught by Hansen sneaking back into the hotel at 2am (and he was drinking with a Ferner earlier in the evening).
And then he never appeared again - not even when Hansen took every man and his dog to Japan.
I'm sure that was part of the reason they didn't likeh im but it wasn't just that. I would have said on here at the time (which was probably around that time can't be arsed fact checking exact time) that I was at a presso given by Reuben Thorne showing all the software and tech they use for analysis and training. He specifically used Akira as an example to show in his words, why the AB's would always take Luke Whitelock over him. Gist of it was.. ball in hand awesome.. no surprises.. pretty much every other workrate stat they tracked he was at the bottom of the pile.
He would have been given some pretty clear messaging on his workons, and if they weren't seeing any improvements in those stats they wouldn't take him.for example Samis workons given to him at the start of the year were improving his throwing and increasing his ball carry. Now strengths and clear to see on the weekend.
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@chris-b Spot on there. Hard to tell where Auckland ends now though with Hampton Downs Te Kauwhata and Ohinewai moving on. But Maramarua is swamp land Counties
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@arhs I wondered if people were confusing Matangi so was defending my old club Hautapu after the fuss made about the covid location just up the road from the club...
