All Blacks vs Scotland
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so, things that stood out when watching the replay
DH, he was pumping his legs on attack.....then threw that intercept...and just trotted back, there was no urgency to try and make up for his mistake, he gave up the second he saw it go to hand, poor
Dalton was great, everywhere
at about half time i was thinking Savea had been present but not everywhere like he has been most of the season....and then he was EVERYWHERE in the second half
Perofeta came on and his kick for touch was the best all game, tight angle and carved off 50m, it use to be just our open play kicking that was rough but kicks for tough from BB were either not out or about 20m
I thought akira was very quiet but saw some say he was doing good work so will accept i just missed it
Tela - someone picked on form, did really well, ALB - someone picked on reputation or past form...looked rough...food for thought
Are we afraid of possession? no confidence we can keep it? why do we kick it away so much? i was always taught winner always want the ball, sayings like "earn the right to go wide" became saying for a reason, build some phases, draw in more defenders, create the mismatches...then try the fancy stuff
There was a play late in the game where we kicked up upfield and the scottish wing took it on the chest, it went about 5m backwards...and he got pinged for a knock on, that was harsh
we were lucky, the scottish yellow was harsh, personally it looked accidental so just a knock on but would have understood a penalty...but yellow? we want players to wrap arms but then give them yellow cards if they wrap too wide?
We did not play as well as we could...but scoland did really well and that was cool to watch
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
DH, he was pumping his legs on attack.....then threw that intercept...and just trotted back, there was no urgency to try and make up for his mistake, he gave up the second he saw it go to hand, poor
He seemed to be completely lost as to what option to take before he threw that pass. It was a slow-motion car crash.
Perofeta came on and his kick for touch was the best all game, tight angle and carved off 50m, it use to be just our open play kicking that was rough but kicks for tough from BB were either not out or about 20m
BB kicking out of hand - apart from the Telea cross-kick - was pretty much amateur night..
I thought akira was very quiet but saw some say he was doing good work so will accept i just missed it
Thought he was really good (particularly at the breakdown) in the first 15-20 minutes but then seemed to fade a bit. Maybe a change in tactics when Scotland took control?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
i think we dont have the luxury to do anything other than right back to basics, Jordie starts....and his back up backs him up from the bench, trying to develop two starters is arrogant given how long we have before the RWC
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
i think we dont have the luxury to do anything other than right back to basics, Jordie starts....and his back up backs him up from the bench, trying to develop two starters is arrogant given how long we have before the RWC
Totally agree we don't need two starters but we need to aware of the risks, get the bench option right and hope the midfield injury hoodoo doesn't strike again . It's a bloody awful situation we are in due to injuries which hasn't been handled at all well.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
They missed: Tackle Completion 25%
The thing I liked about him was he was just so bloody solid. Minimal pyrotechnics, minimal mistakes and did his job really well.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
They missed: Tackle Completion 25%
The thing I liked about him was he was just so bloody solid. Minimal pyrotechnics, minimal mistakes and did his job really well.
@Victor-Meldrew good hands...made meters with ball in hand....scored when given the opportunity...thats got to the the bedrock of a good winger...build the rest on top
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Again, that argument only makes sense if you're selecting a rookie or inexperienced player to develop.
Or combinations.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Again, that argument only makes sense if you're selecting a rookie or inexperienced player to develop.
Or combinations.
Like JB and ALB?
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just on the 12 shirt. If it does indeed turn out that JB is the future, then the ready made back-up already exists in ALB.
And if a curse strikes, and we lose two midfielders, then we have already given enough minutes to DH to come in and not be overawed (forever to be known as the Beaver role). Job done.
The 13 shirt is a lot more precarious.
It's kinda funny how fucked our backline sort of is when you sit back.
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just on the 12 shirt. If it does indeed turn out that JB is the future, then the ready made back-up already exists in ALB.
And if a curse strikes, and we lose two midfielders, then we have already given enough minutes to DH to come in and not be overawed (forever to be known as the Beaver role). Job done.
The 13 shirt is a lot more precarious.
It's kinda funny how fucked our backline sort of is when you sit back.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
just on the 12 shirt. If it does indeed turn out that JB is the future, then the ready made back-up already exists in ALB.
And if a curse strikes, and we lose two midfielders, then we have already given enough minutes to DH to come in and not be overawed (forever to be known as the Beaver role). Job done.
The 13 shirt is a lot more precarious.
It's kinda funny how fucked our backline sort of is when you sit back.
JB, RI and ALB are the guys to cover the 12 and 13 jerseys going forward
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
just on the 12 shirt. If it does indeed turn out that JB is the future, then the ready made back-up already exists in ALB.
And if a curse strikes, and we lose two midfielders, then we have already given enough minutes to DH to come in and not be overawed (forever to be known as the Beaver role). Job done.
The 13 shirt is a lot more precarious.
It's kinda funny how fucked our backline sort of is when you sit back.
JB, RI and ALB are the guys to cover the 12 and 13 jerseys going forward
@canefan i dont disagree.....but a decent part of this thread is dedicated to pointing out how average ALB was....those three CAN do it....but i dont think ALB is back to that level yet
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@canefan i dont disagree.....but a decent part of this thread is dedicated to pointing out how average ALB was....those three CAN do it....but i dont think ALB is back to that level yet
@Kiwiwomble he was significantly better when he moved to 12. And wasn't sitting outside the dead weight.
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@canefan i dont disagree.....but a decent part of this thread is dedicated to pointing out how average ALB was....those three CAN do it....but i dont think ALB is back to that level yet
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan i dont disagree.....but a decent part of this thread is dedicated to pointing out how average ALB was....those three CAN do it....but i dont think ALB is back to that level yet
He's just come back from injury, but the final 25 minutes at Myrrayfield were promising
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@Kiwiwomble he was significantly better when he moved to 12. And wasn't sitting outside the dead weight.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble he was significantly better when he moved to 12. And wasn't sitting outside the dead weight.
I personally think he is a better 12 anyway (who can cover 13) as his offload and short passing game in closer is more effective.
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fair play, would have liked to see him outside JB too
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
fair play, would have liked to see him outside JB too
Agreed. I said that earlier. JB at 15 was a wasted opportunity. Play him at 12 with ALB at 13, then move ALB to 12 and play RI at 13 which is what they did
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
fair play, would have liked to see him outside JB too
Agreed. I said that earlier. JB at 15 was a wasted opportunity. Play him at 12 with ALB at 13, then move ALB to 12 and play RI at 13 which is what they did
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
fair play, would have liked to see him outside JB too
Agreed. I said that earlier. JB at 15 was a wasted opportunity. Play him at 12 with ALB at 13, then move ALB to 12 and play RI at 13 which is what they did
In terms of setting up ALB as the bench/backup option at 12/13, that would have been a reasonable plan too.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
fair play, would have liked to see him outside JB too
Agreed. I said that earlier. JB at 15 was a wasted opportunity. Play him at 12 with ALB at 13, then move ALB to 12 and play RI at 13 which is what they did
In terms of setting up ALB as the bench/backup option at 12/13, that would have been a reasonable plan too.
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
fair play, would have liked to see him outside JB too
Agreed. I said that earlier. JB at 15 was a wasted opportunity. Play him at 12 with ALB at 13, then move ALB to 12 and play RI at 13 which is what they did
In terms of setting up ALB as the bench/backup option at 12/13, that would have been a reasonable plan too.
Yep, we have a clear pecking order at 12 now; JB, ALB and then DH. ALB is a better bench option and has a higher ceiling than DH, so DH becomes a useful WC squad memeber covering (at a pinch against Nambias of the world, 10 and 15 too).
RI is the clearly the top 13 now, and ALB is second. But third? DH or JB? Eek. They did try RTS at 13, so it's in with a shout but needs more game time at 12 & 13.
Writing that all out, midfield depth isn't that bad, especially when you look at Sullivan progressing nicely.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble he was significantly better when he moved to 12. And wasn't sitting outside the dead weight.
I personally think he is a better 12 anyway (who can cover 13) as his offload and short passing game in closer is more effective.
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I personally think he is a better 12 anyway (who can cover 13) as his offload and short passing game in closer is more effective.
I still don't expect ALB to be playing 12 for the Chiefs with both Nankivell and Poihipi more suited to that role. ALB is their defensive organiser from centre.
For the ABs, ALB is the only midfielder who is comfortable playing in either position, which does make him the ideal sub. No.23 needs to be an impact winger, not Havili.
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Taukei'aho has now scored 10 tries in 20 tests, the best strike rate for an All Black forward in history.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I personally think he is a better 12 anyway (who can cover 13) as his offload and short passing game in closer is more effective.
I still don't expect ALB to be playing 12 for the Chiefs with both Nankivell and Poihipi more suited to that role. ALB is their defensive organiser from centre.
For the ABs, ALB is the only midfielder who is comfortable playing in either position, which does make him the ideal sub. No.23 needs to be an impact winger, not Havili.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I personally think he is a better 12 anyway (who can cover 13) as his offload and short passing game in closer is more effective.
I still don't expect ALB to be playing 12 for the Chiefs with both Nankivell and Poihipi more suited to that role. ALB is their defensive organiser from centre.
For the ABs, ALB is the only midfielder who is comfortable playing in either position, which does make him the ideal sub. No.23 needs to be an impact winger, not Havili.
this is sort of a big issue with only having 5 pro teams. The ABs are constantly forced to pick guys in positions they don't play all year, simply because there are such limited opportunities.
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I think commentary mentioned we lost 4 out 5 this year with BB starting at 10. Could have been 5 from 6. Time to leave RM at 10 until something better comes along.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I think commentary mentioned we lost 4 out 5 this year with BB starting at 10. Could have been 5 from 6. Time to leave RM at 10 until something better comes along.
Part of the problem is that he doesn't have Smith inside and his bro outside, he plays with the second team whilst at 10. Not every game, but it is not helping!
But yeah, he's not a 10, I still think he is our best 15
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
What?
Just pointing out that you are going on and on about the same thing as if you think someone is listening.
By the way, you know that JB/RI midfield that was so brilliant against Oz? They had only played about 15 minutes as a combo before that game. Yep. Not 62 games.
My fucking point. They need as much game time as possible between now and the QF FFS.
Are you reading whole posts or just skipping to the part you want?
Were JB and RI good in their first game together? Yep. Go back to the thread and you'll find all sorts of superlatives, not about their eventual promise but how good it was right then.
Point is that it didn't take 62 games, or even a dozen, to get there.
Yes, time together will build instincts but it also works pretty well as is.@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
What?
Just pointing out that you are going on and on about the same thing as if you think someone is listening.
By the way, you know that JB/RI midfield that was so brilliant against Oz? They had only played about 15 minutes as a combo before that game. Yep. Not 62 games.
My fucking point. They need as much game time as possible between now and the QF FFS.
Are you reading whole posts or just skipping to the part you want?
Were JB and RI good in their first game together? Yep. Go back to the thread and you'll find all sorts of superlatives, not about their eventual promise but how good it was right then.
Point is that it didn't take 62 games, or even a dozen, to get there.
Yes, time together will build instincts but it also works pretty well as is.So chop and change the team until the QF and just home 2007 and 2019 don't happen again. Cool.
