All Blacks 2023
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I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
So you’re saying a quartet of Lomax, Frizell, Cane and J Barrett are remotely comparable to those legends ?
Jeepers creepers.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
So you’re saying a quartet of Lomax, Frizell, Cane and J Barrett are remotely comparable to those legends ?
Jeepers creepers.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
So you’re saying a quartet of Lomax, Frizell, Cane and J Barrett are remotely comparable to those legends ?
Jeepers creepers.
Key players in key positions who don't have top quality replacements behind them. Stick Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, and Barrett in, and I think you can easily make the argument we win that game. Massively missed Lomax and Frizell in particular.
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I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
The French were also missing some key players,I think you a clutching at straws there.
Even if you add those players and some played the game before v SA.
We still were just not good enough once again.Tactics were poor and we can not handle any sustained pressure no matter what personal we put out there.
We revert back to the same shit under pressure the French game mirrored the SA game. -
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Give over. Every side in the World Cup is missing players due to injury. Do you think that was the French preferred 15? (Hint: Willemse, Gros and Danty injured. Plus Chalureau excluded.)
If anything we are extremely lucky to be without serious injuries.
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England who were a rabble 2 weeks ago looked better than us v Argentina,I know it wasn't the French they played,But it was how they played, perfect WC knock out Rugby.
While we are playing touch rugby or some inane senseless rugby which has been found out for the last 4 years.
Surely some coaching staff and players see this or are they blinded by stubbornness. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
The French were also missing some key players,I think you a clutching at straws there.
Even if you add those players and some played the game before v SA.
We still were just not good enough once again.Tactics were poor and we can not handle any sustained pressure no matter what personal we put out there.
We revert back to the same shit under pressure the French game mirrored the SA game.@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Even that great 2015 side, consider them playing against that French side on the opening night in front of a baying crowd without Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick (I know he ended up on the bench, but that was injury-enforced and he was hardly use as a result), Jerome Kaine, Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu. They might have still won anyway, because they were better, and they were better coached, but I think it is entirely possible the result wouldn't be the one you want.
The French were also missing some key players,I think you a clutching at straws there.
Even if you add those players and some played the game before v SA.
We still were just not good enough once again.Tactics were poor and we can not handle any sustained pressure no matter what personal we put out there.
We revert back to the same shit under pressure the French game mirrored the SA game.I'm not necessarily excusing it, but perspective is important. Mo'unga kicks one of those other two conversions, a bit of luck and we could have pinched that game. I'd hardly say it was a 14 point game.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Give over. Every side in the World Cup is missing players due to injury. Do you think that was the French preferred 15? (Hint: Willemse, Gros and Danty injured. Plus Chalureau excluded.)
If anything we are extremely lucky to be without serious injuries.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I personally think people are way overreacting. Like or loathe Foster, that was a side stripped of five starters.
Give over. Every side in the World Cup is missing players due to injury. Do you think that was the French preferred 15? (Hint: Willemse, Gros and Danty injured. Plus Chalureau excluded.)
If anything we are extremely lucky to be without serious injuries.
But look at the quality of their replacements. This All Black side is rich in depth in certain positions (Hooker, Openside, Outside Backs) but is extremely lacking in others. Lock for instance has quality depth, but not quantity, blindside it is non-existant.
If you asked me which five players I wouldn't want to go down injured, I reckon I'd say any of those three locks, Frizell, A Smith, Savea, J Barrett
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And I don't want to be a Foster apologist, because I'm not, and I didn't want him as coach, but I get bored of this whole meltdown every time we lose. People didn't expect us to win that game, and we didn't, but we also weren't as far away as many would have you believe despite plenty of adversity.
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And I don't want to be a Foster apologist, because I'm not, and I didn't want him as coach, but I get bored of this whole meltdown every time we lose. People didn't expect us to win that game, and we didn't, but we also weren't as far away as many would have you believe despite plenty of adversity.
But the reality is the 2nd half mirrored tactical shit we saw V SA,Ireland,Argentina when we lost.
When the pressure goes on we fold badly,We seem to have no way out,A penalty here and there would not have made a difference,The French also missed an easy penalty kick plus a conversion and a couple of other chances, the score could have been bigger as well.
We are not progressing at all from 3 years ago that is how it is,Unless something changes tactically we will get the same results. -
And I don't want to be a Foster apologist, because I'm not, and I didn't want him as coach, but I get bored of this whole meltdown every time we lose. People didn't expect us to win that game, and we didn't, but we also weren't as far away as many would have you believe despite plenty of adversity.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
And I don't want to be a Foster apologist, because I'm not, and I didn't want him as coach, but I get bored of this whole meltdown every time we lose. People didn't expect us to win that game, and we didn't, but we also weren't as far away as many would have you believe despite plenty of adversity.
They lose in the same way because they are a flawed team with flawed selections.
They ended up with Vaai at 6 cos he didn't select enough loosies.
They have a flawed 10/15 combo but he doesn't have the guts to drop Beauden.
They are ill disciplined because as a head coach you are either coaching something or allowing it to happen.
They have flawed tactics because of a combination of picking the wrong players and trying the same braindead tactics that fail time and time again.
They are trying to square peg round hole a super rugby game plan in test rugby. Doesn't work.
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I think the last 2 2nd halves highlighted everything that is poor about this team: indiscipline, poor leadership, poor tactics and poor decision making.
The 2 1st halves of the same games show we are still up there and with more smarts and a bit of luck, could actually do this.
Biggest issue is lack of smarts and with it, inability to create a bit of luck either.
So in summary we aren't as shit as the scores would seem, but also not as good as we would hope or like.
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We should also be questioning the on-field leadership of the team (no Cane to blame in this game), and the game drivers for the (flawed) tactics used, and poor execution.
@Bovidae more so it (tactics) seemed to change in the 2nd half too.
Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Dalton, Ardie...all leaders yet....
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Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
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We should also be questioning the on-field leadership of the team (no Cane to blame in this game), and the game drivers for the (flawed) tactics used, and poor execution.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
We should also be questioning the on-field leadership of the team (no Cane to blame in this game), and the game drivers for the (flawed) tactics used, and poor execution.
I can't remember when I saw it, but I recall watching something on TV ages ago, where they went inside the AB camp to give an insight into test week. Everything they do is building towards the game. If the blueprint is flawed from the start we should not be surprised at the failure to execute, or the inability to pivot to a plan B. Especially as the current senior player group are nowhere near the calibre of our RWac winning groups in 2011 and 2015
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Could be totally wrong here, but if the All Blacks are going to play this high risk game trying to run it from anyway, forget Shaun Stevenson, RTS playing the way he has at fullback would be a seriously good option.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Could be totally wrong here, but if the All Blacks are going to play this high risk game trying to run it from anyway, forget Shaun Stevenson, RTS playing the way he has at fullback would be a seriously good option.
You’ll probably get some emotional responses to saying the name RTS. However his style at fullback is interesting. It reminds me of Piutau taking the space as quickly as possible. The kick is still there (and it’s surprisingly good) but the forwards know to expect the run
I’d like to see more fullbacks attempt this style. It could be a good fit for our SR pack
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
TBH, we don't even have a 6 with the ability of Liam Messam when JK went on his sabbatical. Another guy not really thought of for his lineout work.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
TBH, we don't even have a 6 with the ability of Liam Messam when JK went on his sabbatical. Another guy not really thought of for his lineout work.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on 6 at the lineout? Think of our two recent shit the bed moments in the world cup, playing Scooter at 6 vs England for his lineout ability. Play Vaai for his lineout ability. Both times it backfired, I think maybe the core roles of a 6 should trump the lineout first. That is moving bodies, making metres and just adding some mongrel.
When I think of great AB 6s like Jerry Collins and Jerome Kaino, I don't think of their lineout ability first
TBH, we don't even have a 6 with the ability of Liam Messam when JK went on his sabbatical. Another guy not really thought of for his lineout work.
Liam would walk into this team
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And I don't want to be a Foster apologist, because I'm not, and I didn't want him as coach, but I get bored of this whole meltdown every time we lose. People didn't expect us to win that game, and we didn't, but we also weren't as far away as many would have you believe despite plenty of adversity.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
And I don't want to be a Foster apologist, because I'm not, and I didn't want him as coach, but I get bored of this whole meltdown every time we lose. People didn't expect us to win that game, and we didn't, but we also weren't as far away as many would have you believe despite plenty of adversity.
The reason why there is a perpetual meltdown on here is because we aren't doing the NZ player talent justice.
NZR = amateur
We have come second in the smart stakes for literally years now.
